my own dog help!

RE: my own dog help!

Mac Barksdale — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 14:19:53 GMT

oNE OF MY BIGGEST "FOOLERS" WAS A CANINE WITH GI SYMPTOMS. REPEATED RADIOGRAPHS

REVEALED a gas pocket in the stomach ! Turned out to be a Tennis Ball ! How such a small dog ever swallowed a Tennis Ball.... i can not undertand ! ! Just a hint from me. Mac

RE: my own dog help!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 27 Jul 2016 08:55:39 GMT

Poor poor Ekko...............but at least she was loved during her all too short life.

Wynne

RE: my own dog help!

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 17:22:10 GMT

It's hard not having a definitive answer but I hope you are feeling better and your lovely sons are ok. You are no doubt hurting more than they are but I hope you realise that there was nothing anyone could have done when events move so quickly . Wishing you well.

RE: my own dog help!

chris Jones — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 09:35:11 GMT

results still a bit up in the air.

the parvo pcr came back as positive moderate ct 35. spoke to one clinician who felt that this would be indicative of parvo. spoke to another that I know yesterday who I trust and has looked into things in more detail. she feels it probably isn't parvo but the vaccine dna coming through. unfortunately not enough blood to run titre levels.

I will still be looking at the vaccine finish dates and probably do a 12 week finish but need to talk to the powers that be.

awaiting the pathogenic e coli analysis but it is a long shot. The only other thing that I can think of that would cause such a fast decline would be toxic and on that day she was at my parents house for the day because it was warm. she did like digging and ripping stuff up in the garden and looking around they seem to have plenty of death cap mushrooms around! it could be on the list but who knows. would explain the acute situation.

just have to put it down to a horrible experience.

thanks again

chris

RE: my own dog help!

KMurphy — Mon, 25 Jul 2016 18:30:45 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]To the OP the discussion is of little comfort beyond the fact that this was probably going to happen whatever and nothing was missed. The outcome may well have been the same.[/quote]

Absolutely. It's just a really sad case all round. Sometimes you just can't win and it sounds like this was very much the case with poor Ekko.

RE: my own dog help!

Anthony Todd — Mon, 25 Jul 2016 18:18:56 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]There's no evidence to suggest it was the vaccine or the vaccination interval that was at fault.[/quote]

There would be for sure if you could get the mother's titre, which I'll wager would be sky-high, probably would have neutralised the vaccine until 20 weeks......!

Trouble is, if one goes against the vaccine manufacturer's protocols, one legally won't have a leg to stand on, even if the science backing that protocol is dodgy at best.

RE: my own dog help!

Bob Russell — Mon, 25 Jul 2016 17:56:22 GMT

There is plenty of evidence that a percentage will not respond at 10 weeks that would at 12. Data sheets may say 10 week finish but a minority will not be protected until the first annual booster. Much too late.

Sadly in individual cases it is not possible to protect them through the very high risk period. Even more sad, on occasions it will be a vets puppy.

I don't apportion blame to the puppy, owner or vaccine. It seems likely that nothing would have changed the situation here.

We do use Versican here which has a six week start and protection three weeks later. Is it better? Perhaps time will tell but I am not going to chance it so will continue with a 16 week parvo.

To the OP the discussion is of little comfort beyond the fact that this was probably going to happen whatever and nothing was missed. The outcome may well have been the same.

Puppies still die of parvo! At best we can minimise the numbers at risk.

RE: my own dog help!

KMurphy — Mon, 25 Jul 2016 17:40:55 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]following the data sheets and proven to be unsafe and not protected.[/quote]

There are always non-responders to vaccination and it is possible that this pup was just unlucky to be one of those. There's no evidence to suggest it was the vaccine or the vaccination interval that was at fault.

RE: my own dog help!

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 25 Jul 2016 16:50:11 GMT

Sad thing is, the 16 week parvo booster recommended would have been too late for this pup!

In one way maybe, this sad death will serve for more vets to pull back from the 10 week second vaccination policies. i have found it frustrating working in practices who insisted I had to recommend this to clients when i personally believed it to be unsafe. I know one case is only n=1, but this was a vet owned pup, vaccinated with the best intentions and following the data sheets and proven to be unsafe and not protected. So hopefully it will weigh heavy in the arguments. Unless it was a different strain of parvo?

Mariette

RE: my own dog help!

Bob Russell — Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:15:46 GMT

Sad but at least you have an explanation. I have long since stopped accepting the 10 weeks finish. I occasionally use Nobivac to match first vaccinations done elsewhere and will do a ten week vaccination. I always try to get them in at 16-18 weeks for a final parvo.

RE: my own dog help!

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 18:17:49 GMT

It's likely that the maternal antibody titre in the population is sky high and the early doses are ineffective so probably the 8 week dose, and even the next, are ineffective but the manufacturers want to claim protection as early as possible.

There was a vogue for sampling for titre before vaccination after the great pandemic in the UK but titres varied between labs enormously so I could never see the point as the test cost more than another, later, dose...

RE: my own dog help!

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:48:44 GMT

At least you didn't miss anything, it was just very bad luck. We vaccinate at 8,12,16 weeks, with rabies only included at 12 and 16 weeks.

RE: my own dog help!

Rob Davis — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:35:55 GMT

[quote user="cmj"]

parvo pcr positive

had 8 and 10 week vacs

[/quote]

That's horrible luck, and I don't think anybody would have done things differently.

We used to do 8 and 10 weeks as per data sheet and we had several cases of parvo in vaccinated puppies including my own. Fortunately my dog came through it ok, but it was pretty distressing at the time and I really feel for you. This was around 8 years ago, and following this we changed our vaccination protocol to a 12 week finish, or an extra parvo vaccination at 16 weeks if owners wanted to do 10 week second vaccination. Since the change we have had no further cases of parvo in vaccinated puppies. There have been a few discussions on this over the years if you search the forums.

I know you will still be feeling horrible, but at least you know you didn't miss a foreign body etc, and it is unlikely that your pup could have been saved from such a peracute infection.

RE: my own dog help!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:31:14 GMT

Rethink vaccination policy but blame VMD not yourself.

Wynne

RE: my own dog help!

chris Jones — Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:44:14 GMT

got a result back from the lab.

parvo pcr positive

had 8 and 10 week vacs, getting them to run antibody levels in blood see if she had a response. might need to rethink our vaccination policy. They suggest they could still pick up parvo dna 2 weeks after vaccination but not a hi level 6 weeks later. don't want to jump to conclusions but looks suspect.

looking forward to a weekend off still pretty flat at the moment.

thanks again for all your kind replies and Pm's.

regards

chris

RE: my own dog help!

Utlendigur — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 12:07:05 GMT

I'm really sorry to hear about your little pup. A few years ago I lost one of my dogs very suddenly at only 4 years old to very acute, severe, completely atypical PLE, and I know the disbelief and guilt that makes you feel that somehow you should have been able to stop it happening, especially being a vet. But like others have said, sometimes it's just sheer horrible bad luck. Look after yourself and try to remember the good times with Ekko

RE: my own dog help!

Julie Innes — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:56:28 GMT

So so sorry to hear this- really not expected from the start of the thread, and I really don't think you missed anything or did anything wrong. It's horrible when it's one of your own. I had to let our dog go after unexpected illness/ events, and I felt terrible. The kids were expecting me to "fix him", and I couldn't. Sometimes there is nothing you can do. :(. All my sympathies

RE: my own dog help!

Pip R — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:40:50 GMT

Be gentle with yourself & don't expect too much too soon. I still miss our whippet eighteen months later - they leave an enormous hole when they go.

RE: my own dog help!

chris Jones — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:36:07 GMT

thanks everyone for the replied and Pm's.

still not great today. full consult list and pantomime smile applied!

as has been said before few days of sh**t then hopefully will feel better.

This forum is wonderful, the support that you guys give is very much appreciated.

thanks again

chris

RE: my own dog help!

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:13:47 GMT

So sorry to hear Chris, it's always horrible with your own pets.

I agree with everything that's been said already - FB's don't crash that quickly, had to be some sort of horrible HGE.

RE: my own dog help!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 08:18:59 GMT

This was so horrible We're all supporting you.

Wynne

RE: my own dog help!

chris Jones — Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:05:13 GMT

Thank you george for your incredibly kind words. She has left a huge hole in our lives. My kids being 5 and 3 dont really get it and im finding that quite difficult but we'll get there in time. Just need to stop blubbing for more than a few minutes. Managing to hold it together for the kids just not sure how i am going to be for the rest of the week.

My wife has 3 dogs but they are her search and rescue dogs (also a vet) and Ekko was my friend being with me most days (probably cause of the problem) so even though she has only been with me a short time i feel crap. Time will be a healer as they say. It took me a year to find the right dog (and she certainly was) now i'm on my own again.

Bit concerned about the other dogs but will have to monitor them. The youngest is 6 months who was Ekko's bestest. No issues at the moment but if it is hge then a worry. Would be easier if i was a hard bas***d but even at 40 still a blubbering wreck with my own when they have problems. I can keep a proffessional distance to a point but my own is different, same as most vets. I'm supposed to be a more senior vet and cant save my own or deal with a complicated situation. i can, but with the emotional bit i fell apart, i can see why doctors cant treat family,i certainly shouldnt!

Thanks again, wine hasnt helped hopefully a weekend off will!

Chris

RE: my own dog help!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 20 Jul 2016 20:39:59 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."]reading through I agree with the hundred odd years of veterinary experience so far expressed that this was not an FB or intussception but HGE. Dont get too hung up on looking for parvo though. If its negative it doesnt mean you missed anything. [/quote]

Definitely plus 1 here too

RE: my own dog help!

George Cooper — Wed, 20 Jul 2016 20:27:41 GMT

Y'know - sometimes "Mother Nature" wins, no matter what we or anyone else does or can do. As a most 'basic' example look at what happens when a house is left empty /derelect for a time - before long the weeds and plants and so on re-capture the place rendering it 'back to nature', often then covering up what was there previously.

i guess what I'm saying is that none of us has the power/knowledge/skill/whatever to turn back a gale force wind and a high tide combined. What makes your case, Chris, so much more emotional is that it was your family pet that succumbed. I'd suggest you leave it at that - a force of nature that overwhelmed an immature immune system.

i'm going to confess, here, live on VetSurgeon that your story, and that fabulous, love and life-affirming photograph moved me to tears - and having been in practice for decades that's a rare occurrence. Bless you for sharing your tragedy, and may you all find peace from the delightful memories you will have of a great family member who contributed so much to YOUR lives in that tragically short one.

Be at peace.

George

RE: my own dog help!

Gareth C. — Wed, 20 Jul 2016 18:08:45 GMT

reading through I agree with the hundred odd years of veterinary experience so far expressed that this was not an FB or intussception but HGE. Dont get too hung up on looking for parvo though. If its negative it doesnt mean you missed anything.