PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Seadna — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:22:38 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It's broken down in the lungs[/quote]

Thanks!

I don't see the point of going to farm twice - first to scan and inject and then to scan to make sure the injection worked. If we are talking about a batch of heifers that is definitely not supposed to be in calf, there is no chance of the farmer accidentally injecting an animal that shouldn't be injected, right? The only dangers in this case are of the farmer self-injecting or injecting incorrectly, and in the second instance I will pick up his mistake when I'm scanning a week later.

Anyway, the cow that was the subject of the thread spat out her CIDR the evening after I was there and aborted the foetus the next morning :(

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 00:57:16 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]I've always wondered why do we not give the PGF2a intravenously? [/quote]

It's broken down in the lungs so IV would be inactivated before it had chance to do anything.

[quote user="Seadna "]I think I see now the wisdom of our practice not insisting on a first visit to administer the PG - we strongly advise a visit 4 weeks later to check that abortion has occurred. Perhaps my superiors have found that farmers here are less willing to pay for the second scanning visit if they have already forked out for the vet to inject the heifer initially. [/quote]

I still don't agree with it.

We get batches of heifers to abort, but the majority I scan are not pregnant and therefore don't need treating. With reasonable handling facilities you can scan as cheap as you can treat, so you might as well identify those that need treatment and concentrate on them.

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Seadna — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 18:33:03 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]much to the annoyance of the farmers concerned[/quote]

I think I see now the wisdom of our practice not insisting on a first visit to administer the PG - we strongly advise a visit 4 weeks later to check that abortion has occurred. Perhaps my superiors have found that farmers here are less willing to pay for the second scanning visit if they have already forked out for the vet to inject the heifer initially.

I've always wondered why do we not give the PGF2a intravenously? I attribute a lot of the failures to incorrect site selection and the drug being given into a fat pad or subcut or similar.

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Julian Earl — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:46:40 GMT

I believe that the effect of GnRH is to counteract the ischaemic effect of prostaglandins on the CL which I think is how PGs cause luteolysis.I have known PG fail to abort heifers that were mated accidentally so it is clearly not 100% effective much to the annoyance of the farmers concerned. I subsequently advised always re-scanning these heifers to ensure the pregnancy had been aborted as expected; another visit/fee they are reluctant to have. . But Farmers are definitely a bit miffed needing a caesarean on a.heifer aged 14 months say, after paying for the prostaglandin earlier.

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:59:32 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]I think the only potential "antidote" is immediate "Receptal", preferably intravenously for speed of action as PGs work within minutes. Other brands of pro-luteinising agents might work as well. I have no anecdotal evidence for this, only something picked up over the years.Sorry that there is nothing more substantial than that.[/quote]

Julian - I just cannot see a mechanism of action for GnRH in these cases. I suppose if there was a follicle >12mm or so on the ovary we may be able to force it to undergo ovulation and form a new CL. If we look at the hormone profile it is somewhere day 3-4 of the cycle by the progesterone rises appreciably. Around the time of luteolysis and ovulation we will naturally have reasonable levels of GnRH, FSH & LH in the cow - I'm not convinced it can 'block' the PGF2a.

I guess you could try a PRID/CIDR AND give GnRH with the hope the vaginal implant will maintain P4 level while we create a new CL (assuming a suitably sized follicle to work with).

I don't think an NSAID would help.

My gut feeling is where any of these recipes have stopped the loss of the calf - they were the cases where it was not going to happen anyway. The 80% efficacy figure with prostaglandins comes from CEVA as unreferenced, but fits with my personal experiences scanning cows.

I will email VDS and see what they say

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Iain Richards — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:10:31 GMT

Having had the misfortune to inject the wrong cow...... I gave finadyne immediately and put two pride in her. It didn't work and VDS paid up. Interesting comment that Michael, of CIDR (and presumably PRID) not getting to physiological levels.

I've changed my view over the years and would now allow farms PG on a named cow basis.

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Seadna — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:48:56 GMT

Thanks Julian. I should have thought about giving Receptal but it was 6 hours previous that she had been given the prostaglandin and I assumed I was too late. I will go scan her again tomorrow to check for a foetal heart beat and I suppose if there is one it's worth giving her a shot.

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Julian Earl — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:23:55 GMT

I have always refused to supply PGs to farmers on principle; too muchcould go wrong!Re. the original question, I think the only potential "antidote" is immediate "Receptal", preferably intravenously for speed of action as PGs work within minutes. Other brands of pro-luteinising agents might work as well. I have no anecdotal evidence for this, only something picked up over the years.Sorry that there is nothing more substantial than that.

HTH?

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Seadna — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:47:20 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

Oh, yeah - note to self - always read posts before replying

[/quote]

It was probably an easy leap to make especially with the way I worded the title!

Michael I'll bring the incident to "current management" (aka "the boss") and see what is said but I can tell you now I'll be laughed out of the room.

With me, when those drugs go over the counter to farmers I consider competent enough to be given them, they come with three statements, expressed loudly and slowly. "This will abort anything with a calf in it. No asthmatics to handle it. No women to handle it " That's exactly three statements more than my boss has ever gives anyone in the 14 years she has been running the place. It's not a case of being willfully negligent or lazy, it's trying to do things in a manner that satisfies my own ethics while not scaring them off to one of the 5 other practices in the area!

God it's hard sometimes :/ I still get looked at suspiciously when I take tag numbers for clinical records. I bet your lot wouldn't dare coming in looking for so much as a bottle of Pen Strep without bringing tag numbers!

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Niall Taylor — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:16:41 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]I didn't give the cow the pgf, nor did I give it to the farmer to give to her...[/quote]

Oh, yeah - note to self - always read posts before replying

Niall

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 03:32:51 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]We supply the repro drugs on demand to farmers with the appropriate health warnings. The farmers are entirely responsible for their use (and misuse in this case.) I would love to insist on administering them myself. It will not happen under current management [/quote]

In the UK we remain responsible as the prescribing vet. Hence if I examine a cow for an ET programme I will then leave the drug for that animal. I'll leave the prostaglandin for an individual I've synchronised. Handing over bottles of abortificants with any level of warning does not absolve you of blame. Do you think you could use this real case as evidence to "current management" that things need to change?

Interesting story @Niall - I wonder if you only obliterated one CL (almost all twins in cows result from a double ovulation and therefore have 2 CLs). A twin pregnancy only needs 1 CL to continue. The CL is required for the duration of pregnancy in the cow.

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Seadna — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 01:12:07 GMT

I didn't give the cow the pgf, nor did I give it to the farmer to give to her so no sleepless nights for me and a very expensive lesson about to be learned by the farmer.

Thanks for the clarification on the extra CIDR Michael. Yeah, with any luck the prostaglandin doesn't work and she holds the calf....

We supply the repro drugs on demand to farmers with the appropriate health warnings. The farmers are entirely responsible for their use (and misuse in this case.) I would love to insist on administering them myself. It will not happen under current management :)

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Niall Taylor — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 23:14:18 GMT

I did this once, many moons ago, in a cow carrying twins. After a great number of sleepless nights (that's me, not the cow) she went on and calved normally, much to my great relief!

As Michael says, the outcome is by no means certain, but disaster isn't assured, by any means.

I'd have a word with VDS, they have good advice to give in this sort of case and it can be very useful to talk the options through.

Good luck,

Niall

RE: PGF2-alpha given to accidentally-pregnant cow

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 18:41:27 GMT

The don't all abort after PGF2a - thought to be ~80% effective.

There is nothing you can do at this point. The CL is vital for the continuation of the pregnancy at this stage. Even a new CIDR cannot achieve physiological P4 levels, and that drops off rather quickly.

We would never let farmers have CIDR/PRIDs and insist that everything is examined by a vet at the start of the programmes to prevent such things happening. Perhaps something worth implementing in your practice? I certainly wouldn't let a farmer have prostaglandins for animals I hadn't examined.