Canine Vasectomy

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 15:16:55 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

What is the benefit of a vasectomy in a dog? I don't see one. I don't think we can start doing surgery on animals just because owners would like us to - with no benefit to the dog and no benefit to dog-kind.

I would refuse.

[/quote][quote user="Will McMullan"]Can't see much benefit for the dog and it does seem to be for the owner's benefit. I think I shall just wait as long as I can before discussing it again with her and hope she moves on to something else. [/quote]I would rewrite the last phase as, 'hope she moves on somewhere else'! Its good to see a bit of sanity and professional integrity returning to the forum.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

joanne mcallister — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 14:49:05 GMT

interesting thread. I work for a rehoming centre and we castrate and spay all dogs and cats we rehome to prevent indisciminate breeding. The dog I vasectomised last year was a 6 month old giant breed with no behavioural issues that I was reluctant to castrate because of the highlighted health risks. I can see that vasectomising has no obvious benefit for the dog, but does the fact it prevents health issues associated with early castration count?

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Will McMullan — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:47:07 GMT

Thanks for the replies. I did suggest a suprelorin implant but she didn't want it, can't remember why. I'm not very keen to do the op, mainly for the reasons michael outlined. Can't see much benefit for the dog and it does seem to be for the owner's benefit. I think I shall just wait as long as I can before discussing it again with her and hope she moves on to something else.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 14:43:00 GMT

No but it definitely will stop him biting; ever!.......

The argument for castration after sexual maturity, with regard to temperament, seems to be gaining suction [as they say in The Wire]

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Eilidh Corr — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 13:55:23 GMT

Anthony it's worth reading the APBC's guidance notes - I linked to them above. Another area in which there's rich anecdote but no real evidence - however, I believe you're right to suggest that we should tread carefully. Not so much for fear of litigation, but from the perspective of animal welfare and also to manage owner expectations, which are often unreasonably high. "Won't castrating him calm him down?"

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 13:45:41 GMT

".......or fear of storms."

I seem to remember something about early castration affecting temperament and producing "fear biters" so I suppose storms might be fearful to immature dogs?

I suppose, in this litigious age, if one doesn't discuss or warn of the consequences of a castrated young dog fearful of storms.......

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Eilidh Corr — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 13:27:19 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Michael has mentioned previously that he is not an advocate of routine castration in dogs[/quote]

Yes, but I was referring to the beneficial effects of neutering which he pointed out. My point was that I think the potential negative effects also need to be considered.

[quote user="Scarlett Creasey"]Have you seen any similar papers about intact vs neutered in small breeds?[/quote]

I'm afraid not but I'm keeping my eyes peeled. Yes, timing seems to be critical, and as I said before genetics clearly have a significant impact (looking at the comparison of Labradors with GRs). We clearly need more evidence to be able to give concrete advice to clients. My main issue is with vets purporting that castration has health benefits when in fact, in a dog with no hormone-related problems, there may be no net benefit at all.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Scarlett Creasey — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 13:14:40 GMT

Hi Eilidh,

Interesting papers, but what I could take from them was age at neutering had more of an effect on disease. If you look again at the Golden Retriever paper, if the dog was late neutered there was similar incidence of the cancers and hip dysplasia compared with the dogs remaining intact. (I would also argue it was quite a small study and that hip dysplasia has a huge influence of inheritability factors)

Again the GSD paper echos that age at neutering effects the development of these diseases.

I couldn't access the full paper about the Viszlas.

All these papers excluded the commonly associated gonad diseases that were mentioned above by Michael. You do have to consider these also with decision making.

I think it is very common that large breed dogs are kept longer before they are neutered, the vets I last did EMS with last said at least 18 months in extra Large breeds. Mainly because of joint disease and growth plates. Have you seen any similar papers about intact vs neutered in small breeds?

Scarlett

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 12:57:54 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]Michael I think if you open that can of worms you need also to consider the risks associated with castration. I no longer advise clients that castration has health benefits because on balance, based on the science available, it hasn't.[/quote]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If we castrate a dog (that I don't routinely practice)[/quote]

Ironically (I assume he will pop back and confirm at some point) Michael has mentioned previously that he is not an advocate of routine castration in dogs.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 01:29:40 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]after I have discussed the options with the owner.[/quote]

Yup, hard to dodge that evidence, and much to my surprise.

A cherry pick from an abstract:

The younger the age at gonadectomy, the earlier the mean age at diagnosis of mast cell cancer, cancers other than mast cell, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, all cancers combined, a behavioral disorder, or fear of storms.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Eilidh Corr — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 22:05:34 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]there are the other benefits for the owner to be considered (fewer puppies, seasons, false pregnancy, randy dogs, straying, humping legs etc[/quote]

Absolutely, and I still neuter dogs and bitches every week, after I have discussed the options with the owner.

This is something which should be considered on a case by case basis - at the moment the supposed beneficial effects of neutering are pushed on clients without any heed for the emerging evidence that it can also increase the risks of cancers, joint disease and emotional/behavioural problems.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Eilidh Corr — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 22:02:37 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Whooooo, love to see the "science available" please.

[/quote]

I think it's important to justify the advice we give clients. Yes, for some people neutering is absolutely the right thing to do. But for others, it isn't, and the decision to neuter a dog is the client's to make, not ours. Our job is to inform them of the risks and benefits of a procedure. Which is hard to do when many of us aren't even aware of the potential risks.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.244.3.309?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3Dpubmed&

We have some fairly compelling evidence that neutering may be harmful in Viszlas.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055937

And it seems that similar harm is done when Golden Retrievers are neutered.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/vms3.34/full

The same can be said of GSDs - although timing is important too.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25020045

Clearly there is a high degree of genetic variation. But I don't think I can tell my clients that neutering is really good for their perfectly happy, normal male dog any more. And when organisations like the APBC suggest we should be picking our castration candidates with more care, I am inclined to heed them.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Iain Richards — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:47:42 GMT

While I'm still to check on the health aspects of neutering, there are the other benefits for the owner to be considered (fewer puppies, seasons, false pregnancy, randy dogs, straying, humping legs etc)

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Anthony Todd — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:45:25 GMT

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"]based on the science available, it hasn't.[/quote]

Whooooo, love to see the "science available" please.

Sounds a bit like a toothpaste advertisement to me.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Eilidh Corr — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:16:28 GMT

Michael I think if you open that can of worms you need also to consider the risks associated with castration. I no longer advise clients that castration has health benefits because on balance, based on the science available, it hasn't.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:04:44 GMT

Has anyone considered the ethics of the situation?

If we castrate a dog (that I don't routinely practice) then there is a reasonable argument that we also prevent testicular and prostate problems. Even benefits with anal adenoma, perineal hernia etc if you want to stretch it.

Vasectomy is a valuable tool in reproductive management in a sheep flock. A number of rams are kept solely for this purpose. It tightens the lambing period and can provide better supervision for parturient ewes.

Vasectomy in ferrets protects jill ferrets becoming sick from oestrogen induced bone marrow suppression. If they don't mate they die (and the implants are very expensive given the individual value of a ferret). The benefit is to the female.

I would refuse.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 16:04:37 GMT

I've done one years ago, very straightforward, just make sure you preserve a section of the vas in case she complains later he has sired pups. Of course as said already make sure she realises he will still be pestering her bitch, mating and tieing with her and howling the place down if separated! Many owners don't seem to get the idea fully.

The one I did was a yorkie and the owner "didn't want to deprive him of his manhood" and he lived with his sister. I gave her all the talk and warning but she insisted. We castrated him 2 years later as he kept mating his sister and she found that unpleasant even though of course no pups ensued. Like others I'm sure, I regularly vasectomise ferrets, they are more fiddly and a good test of eyesight!

RE: Canine Vasectomy

Eilidh Corr — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 15:25:40 GMT

She does realise that a vasectomy won't reduce libido, doesn't she?

She could consider a Suprelorin implant.

RE: Canine Vasectomy

joanne mcallister — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 13:51:28 GMT

yes, it's very straightforward. Just need to be careful not to knick the pampiniform plexus.