Alopecia in cat

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Fri, 27 May 2016 13:56:09 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]How many people are finding demodex gatoi in these cases?[/quote]

The only one I've ever seen had skin changes though, near complete hair loss, with no broken skin on ventral abdomen. [in USA 1997]

And so had the owner [lateral thorax]

RE: Alopecia in cat

Aine Seavers — Fri, 27 May 2016 12:40:45 GMT

Absolutely,= a more ethical passionate vet one cannot ever find-I adore him.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Fri, 27 May 2016 10:18:34 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"][Can't send the link on an apple thingy in Dubai..... but search Norway cat fleas[/quote]

back home so go to:

http://www.fhi.no/eway/default.aspx?pid=240&trg=MainContent_7003&Main_6664=7003:0:25,7364&MainContent_7003=6706:0:25,9097:1:0:0:::0:0

See under fleas...... [sigh, yawn] and Look at Aine's latest post too.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 27 May 2016 09:39:43 GMT

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]Ken Mason-[/quote]Respect.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Aine Seavers — Fri, 27 May 2016 00:15:09 GMT

yep, I would like some cellotape hair pulls and look under micro as well as swabs of ears and some more skin scrapes as well. Has any one been involved with trials giving Bravecto to cats?

So many 'pyschogenic'cats were overgroomers from infestations not detected- parasites still > 85% why cats itch.

Norway not have a flea problem but FAD dont need a high level to be an issue and there are other biting insects that cause milary lesions in cats-look at the mozzie allergies first diagnosed in Australia by Ken Mason- keep looking for the parasite/insect first

RE: Alopecia in cat

Rob Loxley — Thu, 26 May 2016 08:05:22 GMT

[quote user="Stigen"]no mites seen on microscopy[/quote]

How many people are finding demodex gatoi in these cases? Given the high false negative rate for finding this, would trial treatment (lime sulphur) be something to consider

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 18:54:40 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]The cats are in Norway, they don't get fleas..... yawn.....[/quote]

Better tell the Norwegian Institute of Public Health to amend their warning then.....sigh.....

[Can't send the link on an apple thingy in Dubai..... but search Norway cat fleas

RE: Alopecia in cat

Rob Davis — Wed, 25 May 2016 18:26:03 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]What are the chances of 2 cats getting the same "irritative" skin condition where the cause isn't a reaction to the odd flea bite????[/quote]

The cats are in Norway, they don't get fleas..... yawn.....

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 17:59:21 GMT

Just reread the OP again!

Two [2] cats with coincidentally the same symptoms and even

[quote user="Stigen"]Eosinophilic granulocytes were the predominating cell population. [/quote]

which I always thought were connected with some sort of allergic response but apparently these now are pathognomonic for "stress".....

Seems you can do all the tests but come up with the diagnosis current at the moment.

And modvets don't diagnose without at least one external test....

[quote user="Stigen"]findings consistent with feline miliary dermatitis [/quote]

No it ain't, and I've seen a lot [and Ovarid was promoted as the treatment of choice.... but only by the manufacturer] but the lab was in the right ball-park.

What are the chances of 2 cats getting the same "irritative" skin condition where the cause isn't a reaction to the odd flea bite????

As a poster didn't say "time to look inside the box", or, at least, at the cats.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 14:23:30 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

All I am saying, and Lucy as well I believe, is that they aren't ALL allergic cats. Think outside the box.

[/quote]

OK then, but has ventral licking been seen in any other painful abdominal condition? Surely it isn't just limited to the bladder?

I accept that steroids could act on allergic skins and the bladder but I suppose it's because I am unconvinced that "stress" can cause changes in the cat's urine which always seem to accompany the "diagnosis". My harking back to the day is because we saw so many cat's with FUS and all, if the urethra wasn't damaged in the unblock, with correct diet advice got better forever although their environment wasn't considered, let alone changed, nor did or would the "stress levels".

Not trying not to accept new thoughts but, as this "stress" is a recent diagnostic direction and we never had this problem without a physical cause, ie crystals, it is worth questioning the idea. I remember, with severe embarrassment, the dawn of oxalate crystals with the dietary over-acidification of cats' urine so I'm fully mindful of new diseases and conditions.

if "stress" was a factor, and not diet back in the day, surely some would not have recovered but the only recurrence IMHE occurred when diet advice wasn't followed or urethral damage had occurred.

One can only relate one's own experiences, particularly successful ones [er, don't mention oxalate....]

RE: Alopecia in cat

Kate Richardson — Wed, 25 May 2016 11:29:46 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I suppose it could be argued that, as I didn't sample the urine from cats with ventral alopecia and/or over grooming, then they could have well had white and red cells in the urine and, as they were usually given steroids and flea control and got better, I'd never know?[/quote] True, but I could then argue that the steroids treated the urine inflammation, and that's why they got better.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I also make a valid point [IMHO] in that it may well be that some cats, and probably loads that are "sampled", have blood cells in their urine so to link cells in urine and dental disease to ventral alopecia is, to me, a real stretch.[/quote] If they are "sampled" (I assume you mean cystocentesis) then yes they may have red blood cells, but usually very small numbers and I rarely see white cells unless there is an inflammatory process going on. any white cells have to be assessed by numbers and put into context to the amount of red cells. I know I have treated cats with dental disease and had their skin disease resolve. Maybe it's not linked, I can't 100% prove it, but these cats didn't receive any other treatment.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]As ventral alopecia [but only in my opinion, apparently] is an allergic disease and intermittent, depending on challenge, and as it is likely that flea treatment was advised at the same time as the dental [common, and sensible] then the link is the flea treatment and not the dental.[/quote] All I am saying, and Lucy as well I believe, is that they aren't ALL allergic cats. Think outside the box.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Although it is really a tangent to say that "stress" causes crystals to precipitate in a cat's urine, it flies in the face of basic chemistry unless you are saying that cooling urine in a test tube is suddenly stressed so that crystals come out of solution, but I digress.....[/quote] And yes a tangent, but I don't recall anyone saying stress causes crystals, but that stress can cause cystitis. Again, I've lost count of the number of cats I've seen with cystitis who have no crystals in their urine.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 25 May 2016 11:24:40 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I suppose it could be argued that, as I didn't sample the urine from cats with ventral alopecia and/or over grooming, then they could have well had white and red cells in the urine and, as they were usually given steroids and flea control and got better, I'd never know?[/quote] That's definitely true - and it could be argued that as the cat has been provided with a treatment which improves the condition (anti-inflammatory for bladder, anti-pruritic effect on skin) then it doesn't matter (certainly not to the cat!)

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I also make a valid point [IMHO] in that it may well be that some cats, and probably loads that are "sampled", have blood cells in their urine so to link cells in urine and dental disease to ventral alopecia is, to me, a real stretch.[/quote] I personally don't think it is that much of a stretch. Licking over a painful area makes sense to me (like arthritic dogs licking over painful joints), so licking the caudal/ ventral abdomen in the case of bladder pain doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. Not the cause in all cases, of course.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 11:16:52 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Yep. so have I, but not in cats[/quote]

Interestingly, the cases where I have tested urine in association with ventral overgrooming (by no means every case I have seen) haven't been showing overt urinary signs that the owners have noted, such as stranguria, pollakiuria, overt haematuria (when urine has been seen, more often always occurs unobserved in the garden!). However microscopic urine examination has revealed large numbers of red and white blood cells. I'm not sure why this offends you so much?

[/quote]

Because, Lucy, if it didn't occur when Anthony was in practice, then it didn't happen. Anthony, you profess to want to continue to learn, but then you repeatedly refuse to be open to new ideas and information. Understanding of feline behaviour and stress has come on leaps and bounds over the last 10 years or so, and the more we learn, the more it opens other doors and avenues of exploration. Stress is potentially linked so many felines illnesses/diseases. The population of cats we see and treat these days is very different to 30 years ago, many more indoor cats, different breeds, multi cat homes. Owners understanding of normal feline behaviour is incredibly poor. Vets understanding is improving. There is still a lot to learn and no-one professes to know it all. Unless you look for urine changes in a cat which is overgrooming ventral abdomen, how can you say for certain it is unrelated. Many cats have subclinical urinary tract infections. And vice versa, just because a cat IS showing signs of urinary tract disease and its not over grooming, doesn't mean it doesnt happen. Maybe those cats are able to exhibit clinical signs better and relieve their stress in different ways. Equally, not all cats that are overgrooming their ventral abdomen have a UTI. But SOME do. I'v also seen many overgrooming cats with dental disease- treat the teeth, then skin gets better. So Lucy, don't be offended, you make a very valid point

[/quote]

I suppose it could be argued that, as I didn't sample the urine from cats with ventral alopecia and/or over grooming, then they could have well had white and red cells in the urine and, as they were usually given steroids and flea control and got better, I'd never know?

I also make a valid point [IMHO] in that it may well be that some cats, and probably loads that are "sampled", have blood cells in their urine so to link cells in urine and dental disease to ventral alopecia is, to me, a real stretch.

As ventral alopecia [but only in my opinion, apparently] is an allergic disease and intermittent, depending on challenge, and as it is likely that flea treatment was advised at the same time as the dental [common, and sensible] then the link is the flea treatment and not the dental.

Although it is really a tangent to say that "stress" causes crystals to precipitate in a cat's urine, it flies in the face of basic chemistry unless you are saying that cooling urine in a test tube is suddenly stressed so that crystals come out of solution, but I digress.....

RE: Alopecia in cat

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 25 May 2016 11:15:58 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]I'v also seen many overgrooming cats with dental disease- treat the teeth, then skin gets better.[/quote] That's interesting - I'll keep an eye out for that as I hadn't noticed it. I wonder if the sensation of grooming somehow helps oral pain, or if the grooming is more of a displacement activity.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Being scientific, you'd need to compare itchy cats with samples from normal cats, I would assume?[/quote] That is true, though I'm not sure I would persuade enough owners to provide urine samples to form a relevant control group.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I suppose the actual sampling couldn't be the reason for the cells?[/quote] These were free catch samples, so no not in this case.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I'm just making a contra-comment, in fact bladder cats usually are in too much pain [or give that impression] to bother about even moving[/quote] There's degrees of pain or display of pain in these cases though. I find it is much less in some cats than others. For example, I recently saw an obstructed cat who showed very little sign of pain on abdominal palption, others display much more. Generally I find non-obstructed FUS cats much more variable in their display of discomfort.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Kate Richardson — Wed, 25 May 2016 10:56:12 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Yep. so have I, but not in cats[/quote]

[/quote]

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 10:49:58 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Yep. so have I, but not in cats[/quote]

[/quote] I'm not sure why this offends you so much?

[/quote]

Jeepers, I'm not offended; I'm just making a contra-comment, in fact bladder cats usually are in too much pain [or give that impression] to bother about even moving.

Being scientific, you'd need to compare itchy cats with samples from normal cats, I would assume?

I suppose the actual sampling couldn't be the reason for the cells?

RE: Alopecia in cat

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 25 May 2016 09:12:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Yep. so have I, but not in cats[/quote]

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 05:50:59 GMT

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]I have seen this and with stones/dM and urinary infections in dogs have seen perineal and perivulval dermatitis due to the licking here from pain or the sweet urine or the infected one.[/quote]

Yep. so have I, but not in cats! [Except of the penis sometimes when blocked or irritated]

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]it would be good to know.[/quote]

Yes, Arlo, reasoned reasons must accompany a red star, or 1 star, otherwise I'll continue to be a bigoted indignant and never know why....

RE: Alopecia in cat

Aine Seavers — Wed, 25 May 2016 05:43:21 GMT

I have seen this and with stones/dM and urinary infections in dogs have seen perineal and perivulval dermatitis due to the licking here from pain or the sweet urine or the infected one.

A quick question to the person who strongly disagreed with my previous post by giving it a red star- how can you disagree with some one else's documented findings?? I am so curious-you can have different experiences but you cant unmake some one else's. I would love to discuss this with the person who felt the need to do this and yet not put their name to it or to why?? So if you explain why you felt compelled to so feel- it would be good to know.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 05:35:43 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]It amazes me how many new patients still arrive with long skin histories and inadequate or lacking flea control![/quote]

Trouble is [IMHO] the question "any flea control" or "seen any fleas" is the end of the flea subject, any owners always say "yes" or "no" depending on which question is likely to be the best answer...

I always assumed fleas were the allergen until proved otherwise by supervised elimination, which used to take weeks at least.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 05:30:21 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I've started to request urine samples in a lot of these cases - referred pain from the bladder being thought to be the reason[/quote]

I've never seen a cat lick it's abdomen in any of the many FUS cats I've seen.

Who thinks it is a reason and/or has anyone seen this in a FUS cat?

RE: Alopecia in cat

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 24 May 2016 16:04:59 GMT

I've started to request urine samples in a lot of these cases - referred pain from the bladder being thought to be the reason behind the ventral abdomen/ medial thigh 'stress overgrooming' cats. Admittedly in cases where the self trauma is severe enough to lead to skin damage I would be more expecting a pruritic cause than cystitis but I have been surprised.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Bob Russell — Mon, 23 May 2016 16:10:47 GMT

I use depomed on occasions. Generally to cover cats for a defined period. Some seasonally allergic cats will get a single shot. Relieves the misery and usually results in a happy cat and owner.

I am very reluctant to repeat it more than once a year as these are the patients that tend to need more investigation. It is never a replacement for good flea control!

Lack of flea control and regular depomed injections are the diabetes candidate. There are plenty of vets that think this is the way things have to work.

It amazes me how many new patients still arrive with long skin histories and inadequate or lacking flea control!

RE: Alopecia in cat

George Cooper — Sat, 21 May 2016 11:17:44 GMT

Has anyone else tried fluoxetine for stressed cats? I've found it quite useful (and in some anxious dogs, too) and it seems to allow the patient to re-learn things in that after 2-3 months of treatment they no longer react to life like they did before - like CBT for animals.

RE: Alopecia in cat

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 21 May 2016 10:39:09 GMT

[quote user="Noweia"]

Atopica was being pushed for this type of overgrooming in cats a few years back. I've never managed to get anyone to take it for a cat - does anyone else use it?

[/quote]Too expensive, too many potential side effects.

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"] However I would say should probably also do hypoallergenic diet in these type of cats. Wouldn't want to miss a food allergy.[/quote]I generally find that food sensitive cats show a different distribution for their dermatitis but IME the principal is right - do as many things as you can to reduce the antigenic load as these things are often multi-factorial and the allergies/hyper-sensitivities are a trigger for the stress-groomers to over-groom themselves and cause skin lesions.