The stress of taking a pet to the vets

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:22:14 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]never to write "crush" cage in clinical notes. [/quote]I find cat owners are generally amused, even proud, when you tell them that Fluffy was such a tiger he had to put in a cage with a sliding side so we could inject him through the bars just like a real tiger. I really cant see why 'crush cage' can't go in the notes. It doesn't imply cruelty, any other vet/VDS/DC etc would recognise it as a practical means of constraining a cat that was unhandleable, even if you don't actually want to use the term in front of the client.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 17:00:49 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]Beautiful picture, Malcolm, and I will definitely scruff a difficult kitten much more readily than an adult cat. They (adults vs kittens) respond to it very differently. The kitten's body relax whereas the adult's body tenses up. I am sure the behaviourists can elaborate on all the reasons. I am just a crazy cat lady in the making! [/quote]

I have heard it argued that part of the difference in scruffing kittens and adult cats is the weight of the cat, hanging four or five kilograms from a piece of skin may be more painful than hanging less than half a kilogram from a piece of skin.

I think I fall into the very rarely scruff a cat group, in the majority of cases there are better ways, but just occasionally, especially if it's something you can do very quickly, I will.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

J G Wray — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:27:00 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Ferals have to be bundled into the crush cage, I'm afraid.[/quote]

We have rules on how we warn colleagues about all patients, and one of them is never to write "crush" cage in clinical notes. Acceptable form of words include - "patient fractious for exam, towel/nurse/manual/basket restraint used".

We also clearly articulate to the owners, when we have a fractious patient in how, as a consequence of a patient demonstrating these behaviours, limitations are imposed on our ability to examine and treat them, which may lead to compromise in care. This can be done in a calm and reasonable manner. It doesn't require schoolmarmish opprobrium.

These points may seem bleedin' obvious to one and all here, but come the day when an owner objects to the restraint or complains about how poor the service, VDS will be pleased.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:42:55 GMT

[quote user="John Flynn"]

[quote user="David Mills"]How are this crew taking blood samples?[/quote]

I do scruff cats on occasions, but can't remember doing so for a blood sample. I can't speak for those that never scruff a cat, but I will typically ensure that the cat is relaxed and not trying to go anywhere (often in the carrier it came in if suitable) ask the owner to put a finger under the chin and then shave up a patch on side of neck with a quiet set of clippers and use the thumb of my non-dominant hand to press gently near the thoracic inlet to occlude the jugular vein while using the backs of the fingers to prevent the cat "reaching" high with its paws by pressing the backs of the fingers gently against the upper forelimbs; sometimes I will use the index finger of my non-dominant hand to help steady the chin. My dominant hand then holds the needle (23G) and syringe (2-5ml) and takes the blood sample. I have played with ethyl chloride on a piece of cotton wool rubbed over the site of late and not sure if it makes a difference or not on the whole. I think lack of faffing, in addition to a calm environment is essential as most cats dont' give more than maybe 10 secs before wanting to move I find - even with quite fearful cats there's usually a sweet spot when they're brought to a new environment when they are taking in their surroundings and relatively motionless.

[/quote]

Much as Mr. Flynn says, only I like a nurse to hold "whole cat" with one hand (to be more exact, gather up whole cat with the arm and hold forelegs between fingers of the hand) and raise chin with the other. I like to keep the owner out of it if possible as they usually let go at the wrong moment, or else hold too tight. Slightly more awkward cat, nurse holds cat and someone else holds chin. I do use ethyl chloride and it helps a lot, and I use a 21g needle.

If we can't manage like that, I won't fight the cat, I'll sedate it.

I've nothing against scruffing (something of which there are in any case many degrees) when necessary but I can't see how it would help with blood sampling.

I lift cats out of their carriers, I don't drag them out by the scruff.

Ferals have to be bundled into the crush cage, I'm afraid.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

John Flynn — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:18:49 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]How are this crew taking blood samples?[/quote]

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Braden Collins — Sat, 23 Apr 2016 04:32:35 GMT

I think a blanket "never scruff" rule is a bit too far. I will very rarely scruff a cat, but I think some times a quick scruff and job done is better than a prolonged towelling/muzzling.

Equally, I think if cats are needing firm scruffing on a regular basis then technique needs to be looked at.

We even have a crush cage for feral cats and the completely unhandlable (used less than once/year on owned cats), but when we need to do something with a cat, I will always back my staff when it comes to being able to work safely.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Alet Engelbrecht — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:27:10 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]Patiently waiting to be shot down in flames.[/quote]

I really believe there are some truly evil cats out there. Luckily they are a minority. Which is why I am not in the 100% against scruffing. More in the 98% against.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Alet Engelbrecht — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:20:14 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]gentle, firm scruffing.[/quote]

I would say the emphasis is on gentle. As that is how most of us will give an injection in the scruff.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Do people just call 'nice kitty' and wait for the cat to walk out of the carrier? Some will walk out happily but others just will not![/quote]

In my experience, most won't come out by themselves. So I remove the top if possible and lift them out. The vicious ones get the towel cover before I lift them out. In the baskets that can't be opened from the top, I would remove the door and gently turn the basket completely on its front, so that the opening is on the table. Then I wait a moment to allow the cat to reposition itself and slowly lift off the carrier. The cat stays on the table and hasn't been forced to do something it did not want to do. This takes me less time than trying to pull out a cat by the scruff of its neck.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I value my fingers! [/quote]

I completely agree. Which is why I won't stick my hand into an unknown cat's carrier blindly.

Not scruffing cats is not about being stupid - it is actually easier to examine them when they don't arrive on your table as a stressball in attack mode.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"] [/quote]

Beautiful picture, Malcolm, and I will definitely scruff a difficult kitten much more readily than an adult cat. They (adults vs kittens) respond to it very differently. The kitten's body relax whereas the adult's body tenses up. I am sure the behaviourists can elaborate on all the reasons. I am just a crazy cat lady in the making!

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

David Mills — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:15:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Everything you need to do that took 5 minutes faffing around with towels[/quote]

I think this is underestimated by the non-scruff brigade. The faff factor is high. And I bet they use cat muzzles, which must be far worse than being scruffed for a second. How are this crew taking blood samples? Is it equally inhumane to restrain the legs?? Are they allowed to touch cats' feet when placing an IV??

It all gets a bit silly really this humane posturing.

I think animal behaviour, and 'stress' has unfortunately become hijacked by bolshy opinion-spouters and with a large slice of superiority complex armed with bucket loads of fallacious logic. You're either with them, and if you're not, you're absolutely wrong. A bit like the liberal bien-pensant Left in many ways. They can't argue on your terms, if your world view is different to theirs its wrong, and they'll scream this regardless of any experience telling them otherwise.

Sorry Atko, my fat fingers reported your post as abuse - unintentional.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 16:54:11 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Another thought- why do you think that despite being one of the most popular pets in the UK they don't present to the vet as much as dogs? Do they get sick less? Or does the stress of bringing their cat to the vet deter people? How often do you see a dog that has been off colour for one day or has a minor problem that really doesn't need attention compared to a cat? Are cat owner's just more health savvy and intelligent? Why do cats often present late in the stage of an illness instead of early on? Partly I believe due the nature of cats being good at hiding illness, but I bet the stress of taking their cat to the vets is involved somewhere along the line. Just a thought.

[/quote]

I suspect because cats mask illness better than dogs. They spend less time with owners doing their own thing plus some clients consider them less 'valuable'!

How many insure the dog but don't the cat?

Plus they are less genetically screwed up by breeders than many dogs.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 16:02:46 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

no one has to scruff cats, even ferals - we use towels and thick fleeces, finger in the ear rub technique, then sedate or exam as necessary. I will fire the person who wrestles a cat down with force.

[/quote]Well you wouldn't fire me because I wouldn't be working for you in the first place - I value my fingers! I'm sad that you don't put your employee's and client's safety first. Everything you need to do that took 5 minutes faffing around with towels and fleeces then another 15 waiting for the sedative to work could be achieved in 5 seconds with a quick grab of the scruff and the cat left less stressed overall. As others have pointed out it is a natural method of restraint by mother on kittens and 99% of cats just freeze. Too much anthropomorphism going on in this thread. My pre-university student has just shown more sense than half the posters on here: she said, 'if you can manage to easily wrap a cat in a towel you probably don't need to scruff it in the first place'!

Red star please!

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Kate Richardson — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 16:00:51 GMT

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:25:13 GMT

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 11:55:35 GMT

Not sure what the fuss is with gentle, firm scruffing. I do it to get cats out of baskets, supporting their weight underneath.

Do people just call 'nice kitty' and wait for the cat to walk out of the carrier? Some will walk out happily but others just will not!

I will scruff firmly if a cat is trying to attack me or a member of staff but only to get sedation in!

It may be different if we had homoeopathic length consultations but the reality is that cats will be stressed before they even arrive.

We do a lot to reduce stress as much as possible but remain realistic!

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 11:22:46 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Try a new orange needle (25g) instead. They never feel it!

[/quote]That's because you can't get anything other than water through it!

[/quote]

Fine! You use the finest needle that is suitable for the material injected!

Most 25G, some 23G (eg Loxicom) and occasional 21G (eg Alizin).

I have never worked in a practice where needles are changed. Have done here for years. Perhaps the locums can give us an idea how many practices/vets do change needles!

[/quote]

I've changed needles ever since I started practice and especially for vaccinations I use 25G. It makes a HUGE (sorry for shouting) difference and there's a lot of stuff that fits through (Alizine being the obvious exception). I also make sure I get sharp needles, there are differences between brands (which also applies for microchips, I'll never go for the cheapies again)

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Sarah Keir — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 10:42:39 GMT

The cat that bit me, put me in hospital for 4 days and nearly lost use of a finger, was not scruffed; just sitting in his basket, cat jumped out and bit my finger as I was resting my hands on the table! He now is sedated for any procedure. Health and safety trumps on this one and anyone else is free to come and tame this tiger.

Sarah

Patiently waiting to be shot down in flames.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Richard Carter — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 09:31:00 GMT

no one has to scruff cats, even ferals - we use towels and thick fleeces, finger in the ear rub technique, then sedate or exam as necessary. I will fire the person who wrestles a cat down with force.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 23:49:46 GMT

We use the same needle to draw up a drug or injection or vaccine as to inject said product. Beyond that it is disposed of. Always take a tight scruff of dog, cat or horse and they don't ever respond. It's the same principal as holding your skin tight when taking off a plaster.

People frequently comment how their animal didn't notice the injection. I've had both dog and cat owners ask when I am going to give the injection. Tell me how their animal vocalised or was distressed previously. If I believed I was causing unnecessary pain or distress I would do something differently.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Alet Engelbrecht — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:02:48 GMT

On the scruffing of cats - I won't go as far as to say that you NEVER need to scruff any cat - my own bitch cat is an example of nothing else will work at the vets. And she seems to become immune to sedatives... (Maybe I just did not have enough patience with her at the practice when she was younger).

But... the vast majority of (even difficult) cats do not need to be scruffed if you are willing to give them a chance with the correct techniques. I have a number of really difficult cat patients where I get them into a towel immediately, and examine them without scruffing. Cats behave differently with different individuals, horses do too. I had a client that would only ever see me or one of our nurses as we were the only people in the practice who her cat did not try to shred. They're funny creatures.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:05:22 GMT

I can't believe anybody re-uses needles - for crying out loud, they only cost pence!

Wynne

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:07:19 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Arlo, the individual that you now seek to defend in an earlier post wrote something like, I can't believe that there are vets who still believe that ..... and vets that are too lazy [to do things the way he/she believes they should be done].[/quote]

For clarity, I'm not defending Dalriata's stance on cat scruffing (not my place). I just felt that whilst she was making a general observation, the one I highlighted about her was unnecessarily personal.

Mind you, you have a point.

Dalriata - he has a point!

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

David Mills — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:46:36 GMT

[quote user="Dalriata"] you wouldn't be so rude to her![/quote]

[quote user="Dalriata"]Vets who still scruff cats because they are too lazy to use low stress handling techniques[/quote]

Glass houses and all that. C'est la vie.

[quote user="Dalriata"]Danielle Gunn Moore falls into the category of saying you never need to scruff and I suspect you wouldn't be so rude to her![/quote]

One person's opinion isn't evidence. Again, anyone who thinks cats never need to be scruffed is at best misguided. In fact having such black and white rules is not only offensive in its superiority implications but you are putting other staff at risk. Cat bites and scratches are not to be sniffed at.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:42:30 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I agree with you. [/quote]

I am concerned about a lack of balance here.

Arlo, the individual that you now seek to defend in an earlier post wrote something like, I can't believe that there are vets who still believe that ..... and vets that are too lazy [to do things the way he/she believes they should be done].

If people come on hard like that, then they must expect robust responses. Firmly held opinions, no matter how firmly they are held and no made how "shouty" their delivery remain opinions. "The actual facts" are something different.

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Bob Russell — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:20:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Try a new orange needle (25g) instead. They never feel it!

[/quote]That's because you can't get anything other than water through it!

[/quote]

Fine! You use the finest needle that is suitable for the material injected!

Most 25G, some 23G (eg Loxicom) and occasional 21G (eg Alizin).

I have never worked in a practice where needles are changed. Have done here for years. Perhaps the locums can give us an idea how many practices/vets do change needles!

RE: The stress of taking a pet to the vets

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 12:53:31 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Try a new orange needle (25g) instead. They never feel it!

[/quote]That's because you can't get anything other than water through it!