Sheep Euthanasia

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 16:49:53 GMT

I'm a true red-head, so I don't think thought would have come into it!

Wynne

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Julian Earl — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 09:47:59 GMT

Sorry Hannah, but you clearly do not know this man! He allegedly attacked a group of gypsies after they foolishly rustled some of his sheep. He jumped on the top of their vehicle and started beating the roof with the hefty stick he was wielding, threatening he would do the same to them personally if he didn't get his sheep back. The sheep magically re-appeared within a day or two. Not a man to be trifled with! Now I might be daft but I'm not stupid so I didn't pick an argument with him over this poor ewe! All I did was tell him that I was about to inject it "but that would cost him" of course, he said! So I just said what he did was a bit harsh wasn't it? "So?" was the gist of the reply! I'm sure he has a heart really, made of ice probably.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 08:32:15 GMT

I don't think I would have been able to control myself. Despite my regard for the law, I might have lost my cool, grabbed the carving knife and slaughtered him!

Wynne

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Julian Earl — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:56:54 GMT

A tale not for the squeamish: I was called to avery sick ewe showing unilateral neurological signs, and being fed on silage I suggested to the farmer that it could be Listeriosis with a very poor prognosis. The only way to be sure was by examination of the brain. The farmer disappeared, came back a few minutes later wielding a carving knife, grabbed the ewe's horn. pulled its head back, cut the throat and proceeded to sever the head, dropping it in a black bin bag and presented it to me for further diagnostic tests! To say I was dumbstruck by this is an understatement. As the bloke had already been in prison for violent crime, I didn't challenge him over his attitude! Not only that but he didn't get a diagnosis either!!

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:37:41 GMT

Rachel Hear hear

Wynne

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Seadna — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:24:48 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Is Paramedian a misprint?[/quote]

I think this is directed at me because as far as I can see I'm the only person who mentioned it, but no Julian..we were discussing incision site and not anaesthesia technique so not a misprint!

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Rachel Brown — Mon, 11 Apr 2016 19:49:57 GMT

Hi John

in addition to Michael's excellent comments on your first post I will add a couple on your second.

I firmly believe we are increasing sheep welfare by making it economical to treat dystocia. Granted our sheep clients tend to be small herds as this is not a sheep area. Not all problems are genetic so shooting is not a reliable control method. Here in Ireland ICBF is doing great work with cattle genomics without the need to resort to a bullet.

How did you know they shot them and didn't just continue to try to lamb them without anaesthesia/analgesia? Also when they are driving the sheep to the clinic they cannot be tempted to have another root around to get the lamb out.

Dont know what caesar setup you had but our mounded plastic table top doesnt hold anything nefarious after cleaning and the coated concrete floor of shines up nicely too

Rachel

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Julian Earl — Mon, 11 Apr 2016 13:40:56 GMT

Is Paramedian a misprint? Do you mean Paravertebral.Oh and, Iain, You are not a geek to like paravertebrals!for anaesthessa for sheep caesars. It is easy/effective/cheap and reliable. . What more do you want? It is much easier than in cattle by using a 19 or 20-gauge needle 5-7cm with 5-10 ml local per site. If you are a geek, Iain, I claim the title of uber-geek because Professor Phil Scott, whom we both know credits me with putting him on to PV method as the standard sheep-Caesar anaesthesia. I recommend it to anybody to use in sheep. With practice you can do it while the sheep lies in lateral recumbency.

Made my sheep caesars much better process after I started doing these, many years ago now.

Not sure what all this has to do with euthanasia? Also, sheep might have different sensitivity to pentobarbitone to bovines but 30 ml does the job. No need to clip the wool if you can feel the grrove and see the eye!

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

John Flynn — Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:49:37 GMT

Overall, I felt that encouraging the farmer to shoot a ewe that could not be lambed (humanely) on farm would have been better (or indeed any other sheep that they thought was sufficiently ill to stick in a trailer and bring to the clinic).

This could have prevented the "welfare" issues I considered (though on reflecting just now I wonder if perhaps I placed too little emphasis on the lambs' welfare and thought only of the ewe)

One source of disease spread could have been removed (and the advice would have been consistent with other biosecurity advice being offered).

Additionally, it may have over time allowed for the breeding of "easier lambers" with future welfare benefits.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 11 Apr 2016 02:13:55 GMT

John Flynn I tend to disagree with you.

1. Most sheep we lamb/caeser at the surgery come in the back of a Landrover. If the farmer's wife was in labour she'd be going to the hospital in the front of the same Landrover. Transporting one mammal in labour could be considered a president....

2. I do take your biosecurity point. We do power wash down everything between sheep and have a token splash about with FAM disinfectant, but the area would be clean rather than sterile. The sheep industry is spectacularly poor on biosecurity and currently there is a roaring trade in 'pet lambs' where farmers swap motherless lambs onto sheep who've lost their lambs or only have a single lamb. Rams are bought and turned in with the sheep. A proper quarantine/isolation is practically unheard of. Sheep go away on 'tack' where they graze the grass on (usually) a dairy farm - picking up Johne's and various other bugs.

Sheep have a low intrinsic value and I think contact with the vet at lambing time can only be a positive thing. If we over-react and say we have to charge for a visit as we won't see sheep at the surgery then a lot less sheep will receive veterinary attention. That will have far worse consequences on their welfare than a ride to the vets to be lambed. Incidentally our lambing cradle is all metal construction on smooth concrete so relatively easily cleaned.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

John Flynn — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:34:16 GMT

[quote user="Rachel Brown "]We do sheep caesars on the flank in the surgery if possible. Have a lovely table, with a concave top, [/quote]

In former jobs, there were a lot of farmers brought sheep to the clinic for lambing incl. cesars.

I was very uncomfortable with the whole thing and, while it was a convenient and cost-effective means of treating the individual ewe:

1) Transporting a ewe in dystocia (pain), often at speed in a bumpy trailer seemed to fly against the sorts of welfare standards in transport that I believed in and I was uncomfortable effectively condoning this.

2) I was trying to improve their biosecurity and I hardly thought brinigng a lambing ewe to a place where other sick/lambing ewes were that day from farms of unknown health status and then bringing it back to my flock was at all sensible no matter how much foot-dipping occurred. I treated in their trailer whenever possible and was very uncomfortable bringing into the clinic "operating area" no matter how well it had been cleaned (lets be real, often just hosed down roughly during the night at peak lambing time) since the last 9 ewes' birthing fluids had seeped into every crevice of the table that day... Never had a sheep scab outbreak or anything obvious traced back to the clinic's "cesar-table", but i always felt that was simply because there wasn't any in the area and I imagined that pathogen transfer of less noticeable ailments was likely to have occurred...

PS - I only do smallies now, so am simply reminiscing.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:20:50 GMT

[quote user="Dalriata"]Same breeder once pushed his sponges too far into his sheep ie through or into the cervix.... what a nightmare.[/quote]

Intrigued. Given we can't get an AI gun reliably through the cervix I don't believe you can get a sponge in a 1cm+ diameter applicator.

If the sponge's string snap off then they are easy to get out with a speculum and a pair of intubation forceps:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veterinary-Speculum-Ranch-Farm-Sheep-Instruments-Tools-YNR-/330754732869?hash=item4d0284b345:m:m_bXU2HcoZuW7ICE5YLddaA

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Surgical-10-Magill-Intubation-Forceps-Curved-Brand-New-CE-Stainless-Steel-/231614702913?hash=item35ed4fe541:g:Cx0AAOxyA7tSY~mI

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Dalriata — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:03:20 GMT

Agree! Not my favourite breed but at least they were worth spending on.

Same breeder once pushed his sponges too far into his sheep ie through or into the cervix.... what a nightmare.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Emily Rainbow — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 17:16:57 GMT

Doing anything with a beltex ewe is a pain in the backside (and I have tiny hands!)

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Seadna — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 00:58:41 GMT

[quote user="Dalriata"] beltex breeder had embryo transferred very expensive lambs into far too small gimmers.[/quote]

Doing caesars on Beltex ewes I find so hard. They are awful for pushing out the intestines while you are trying to get the abdominal muscles closed. There isn't enough room for their guts in the little blighters, even with a lamb or two taken out!

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Dalriata — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 20:18:28 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

I've done them standing, with me kneeling, went well. Also wondered about doing them with the ewe standing on a platform so I'm not kneeling or bent over and the ewe is less stressed standing. Never got to try it.

[/quote]

In my first practice I had to do 3 in a row on farm one night - a beltex breeder had embryo transferred very expensive lambs into far too small gimmers. After the third one it was 2am in a freezing Scottish gale and after spending so long kneeling on the concrete and straw the farmer had to help me stand up! I now tend to sedate them with a touch of rompun and lift them on bales or a table which is much better! I've only ever gone flank, I miss doing them it's usually such a satisfying op.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 13:06:41 GMT

I used MgSO4 once in a cow. I was a student at the time and she was discovered having done 'the splits'. No firearm was available so I gave 2 bottle IV - as fast as I could. I'm pretty sure she was dead after the first, but I wanted to be sure. Maybe because cow was already rather shocked but she died quickly as seemingly as kindly as pentobarb.

Saw practice with a German vet who gave cows 30ml Pentobarbitone followed by magnesium. Saw it a couple of times, but it worked well.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 12:38:39 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

I uased magnesium sulphate in an emergency for a cow on one occasion and swore I'd never do it again, it seemed to die very slowly as its heart failed. I would not really trust it in the future.

[/quote]

I've used it in cows a couple of times, 2 bottles for an adult cow and 10ml Rompun i/v first, and while it was a few years ago I remember them going very quickly and smoothly.

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Julian Earl — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 11:48:32 GMT

I've found 30-50ml of intravenousPentobarbitone is adequate. I uased magnesium sulphate in an emergency for a cow on one occasion and swore I'd never do it again, it seemed to die very slowly as its heart failed. I would not really trust it in the future. The jugular is not difficult to finf if you raise it and point the needle towards the lateral canthus of the eye. Leave ta needle in the bottle to make it easier to re-load if necessary. I've never used Somulose in a sheep but it should work well. The data sheet scares me though! Worse than Immobilon!

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 08:33:39 GMT

I do them lying down, left flank approach - or I used to back when I was in mixed practice. I'd be worried about possible pulmonary complications if a heavily pregnant ewe was lying on her back.

Wynne

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Iain Richards — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 08:17:16 GMT

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Seadna — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 23:26:13 GMT

[quote user="Rachel Brown "]Once had a vet who used to do them on the flank and standing,[/quote]

I did my first sheep caesar unsupervised, several months after learning how to do cows (Boss: "It's exactly the same as a cow, just get on with it")

I took him at his word and did it kneeling down beside the standing ewe. Farmer thought I was a nutter! I do them paramedian now and the only issue I have is finding a bit of space between all the superficial blood vessels to make incision. The odd farmer prefers flank so I will still do them there but I think it's a lot of muscle to cut through and it makes them slightly more painful during the recovery. Also, bad memories of my sore knees and back after that first one! :\

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Rachel Brown — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:47:24 GMT

Hi Seadna

We do sheep caesars on the flank in the surgery if possible. Have a lovely table, with a concave top, that cranks up and down for doing them on that my back adores. Never tried a paramedian and in out setup would be awkward. Once had a vet who used to do them on the flank and standing, never witnessed it though.

Rachel

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Iain Richards — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 16:50:58 GMT

Indeed, full profile, taken from 6 sheep pre lambing, allows you to adjust the diet if needed.

Flank approach for me too. Paravertebral anaesthesia too, instead of line block, but that's the geek in me!

RE: Sheep Euthanasia

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 22:44:19 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]What are the pre-lambing bloods for Michael, bohb and minerals?[/quote]

Sometimes just BHB. I prefer a full profile (Edinburgh will do 20 pre lambing sheep bloods for £100 - BHB, Magnesium, Urea-N, Albumin, and Copper).

We do sheep by flank incision, I saw practice with a German vet who preferred paramedian. I suspect it doesn't much matter - do what you are comfortable with. There is practically no literature on caesarians in sheep. If it works for you - crack on.