Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Charlie Lyon — Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:39:36 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"](we pay <£10 externally for full biochem/t4/lytes and can't get near that in-house)[/quote]

That is really cheap for a full biochem! We pay nearly double that and put a 50% mark up on ex labs, so for a client T4 would cost £29+VAT for example.

[quote user="rLaurence Webb"]Did you go for the Procyte or Lasercyte Charlotte? What influenced the decision?[/quote]

Looked at the giant pile of boxes today and he has gone for a lasercyte. Didn't really get into why as has been a busy Monday. Idexx come around tomorrow to get it all set up. Even CPD to be earnt doing the idexx learning centre online training apparently which I'll need to look at. Looking forwards to seeing how well they work\how easy they are to use

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Laurence Webb — Sat, 19 Mar 2016 17:39:51 GMT

As well as discounts on consumables IDEXX also offer additional discounts on their reference lab fees for 5 years. The savings come from a combination of the two but I am yet to pull the figures apart to know if it is actually worthwhile.

As I said in the OP, I am clinically happy with our current in-house lab equipment and using an external lab for everything else so I would only make any changes if it makes financial sense.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 19 Mar 2016 14:01:47 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

[quote user="Charlotte Lyon"]We are just about to upgrade to the idexx machines[/quote]Did you go for the Procyte or Lasercyte Charlotte? What influenced the decision?

[quote user="robloxley"]Financially maybe cheaper than your old machines but will it be cheaper than sending out to a lab?[/quote] It should be cheaper, especially after added discounts are added, but that needs to more than offset the purchase cost which is quite eye-watering![quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]We use idexx machines in house, pretty happy with them compared to any other in house solution[/quote]

But what about compared to an external lab solution?

[/quote]That's the crux of the matter!

[/quote]

I fail to understand that an in house practice lab can be cheaper to run (we pay <£10 externally for full biochem/t4/lytes and can't get near that in-house) or more reliable (QC maybe gets run when a run of odd results come in otherwise monthly?) than a large reference lab with their machines and full-time technicians and pathologists with UKAS and GLP accreditations etc. Go and look round idexx wetherby - they're not running Catalysts and Lasercytes there...

We have a vetscan which is good and low maintenance but not cheap nor very flexible, great for on-the-spot results; and an ageing haematology machine which is sub-lasercyte (but better than a QBC!) which does OK alongside a blood smear but often struggles with platelets and WBC differentials - however we get such a good turnaround and service and price from external labs that it's hard to justify updating it. We've had the idexx in-house lab pitch too and it really didn't add up when closely dissected.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Laurence Webb — Sat, 19 Mar 2016 13:06:29 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Lyon"]We are just about to upgrade to the idexx machines[/quote]Did you go for the Procyte or Lasercyte Charlotte? What influenced the decision?

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]We use idexx machines in house, pretty happy with them compared to any other in house solution[/quote]

But what about compared to an external lab solution?

[/quote]That's the crux of the matter!

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Charlie Lyon — Sat, 19 Mar 2016 00:45:49 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Financially maybe cheaper than your old machines but will it be cheaper than sending out to a lab? Will the results be more reliable etc than at a reference lab? which is where this thread started[/quote]

That is the question I'll be able to answer in a few weeks when the new machines are running. Certainly if we can do acth stim, fructosamine, tsh etc etc compare to a bog standard biochem in house we will make money (very rarely use the interpreted service unless totally stumped).

With our current mark up on external labs would be more profitable to do in house and there is the time issue too for clients

It's always been the haematology that has been the issue for us but some blood smear practice should be able to do decent double checks although not up to pathologist level.

our current haem machine I don't trust so send away which defeats the purpose!

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Ashley Rubens — Sat, 19 Mar 2016 00:37:26 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]We use idexx machines in house, pretty happy with them compared to any other in house solution[/quote]

But what about compared to an external lab solution?

[/quote]

To the client or us? We put the same mark up on either, screens work out slightly cheaper externally (not idexx) but most prefer fast results, even when made aware of limitations.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Rob Loxley — Fri, 18 Mar 2016 23:48:02 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Lyon"]The boss has done some math and as long as we do everything we can in house it will work out better for us.[/quote]

Financially maybe cheaper than your old machines but will it be cheaper than sending out to a lab? Will the results be more reliable etc than at a reference lab? which is where this thread started

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]We use idexx machines in house, pretty happy with them compared to any other in house solution[/quote]

But what about compared to an external lab solution?

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Charlie Lyon — Fri, 18 Mar 2016 23:39:05 GMT

We are just about to upgrade to the idexx machines, our current in house haem is somewhat unreliable as in it likes to spit out WBC counts in the 90s and RBC counts lower than what the external labs tell us when we send off for a second opinion. The boss has done some math and as long as we do everything we can in house it will work out better for us. The new machines arrived today and are now stacked in the prep room in 6 boxes ready for the people to turn up on Tuesday

This is after a few months of writing down every in house and external lab we did to compare costs. Quite looking forwards to the new toys

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:09:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]The slides for T4 that go through the Catalyst machine were a bit hit and miss for us, so we've gone back to the snapshot.[/quote]

Found out today our Catalyst Dx wasn't working correctly when doing the T4 dry slide, so they've replaced our machine

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Laurence Webb — Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:58:50 GMT

Thanks everyone. Lots of useful information to think on. I just need to crunch some (lots) of numbers now!

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Ashley Rubens — Thu, 17 Mar 2016 18:59:12 GMT

We use idexx machines in house, pretty happy with them compared to any other in house solution. Just before I came back to the practice we upgraded to a Procyte. IMHO that was a bad decision, expensive machine (especially in consumable / start up costs) with no real advantage for us over the lasercyte. It is quicker, and uses a "standard" blood tube but unless you run a very high volume of samples it makes no difference, the chemistry is still the limiting factor if speed is a concern.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:32:21 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]This is where the dot plots are really useful, probably teaching you to suck eggs but if you look at the dot plot and can see that the areas of different leukocytes run into each other and there is an obvious straight line between the colours, then the machine has had to make an assumption as to where to put the line, and this is what it is flagging up.[/quote]

I got taught about them, then forgot. Will go to the learning centre and read up on it again

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:18:35 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Our procyte can sometimes have a bit of a wobble and not give accurate breakdowns of the leukogram. Sometimes it's because things are really abnormal, I suspect there may be a component of maintenance that causes it sometimes though too.[/quote]

This is where the dot plots are really useful, probably teaching you to suck eggs but if you look at the dot plot and can see that the areas of different leukocytes run into each other and there is an obvious straight line between the colours, then the machine has had to make an assumption as to where to put the line, and this is what it is flagging up.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:02:12 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]The financial decision will be based on what we currently use plus what could be done in-house if we gain the ability to run T4, fructosamine etc that are currently outsourced.[/quote]

At my branch I have a Catalyst Dx. Our main hospital has a Catalyst Dx, a Procyte, Snapshot Dx (or whatever it's called) and Coags, all from Idexx. The slides for T4 that go through the Catalyst machine were a bit hit and miss for us, so we've gone back to the snapshot. May have been a dodgy batch, or people not doing it right. Fructosamine is good, as is being able to do UPC in house.

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]How do you find electrolytes on the Catalyst One?[/quote]

Always been fine on our Catalyst Dx - as long as bloods get run within a reasonable time frame. People who came to set up our machine and do the training always say to check the electrolyte slides aren't frozen together - something to do with them being smaller so there is risk of a partial thaw then re-freeze if not transported/stored correctly.

The internal medicine teleconsult service is very good, on more complicated cases I've had them ringing me back after a couple of days with some further ideas! The Catalyst Dx at my branch was installed in Dec 2014 - for the first 12 months I got a friendly phone call from the same woman just to check in and see how the machine was doing, if any problems etc. Also when it comes to customer service/ordering supplies, they've been great.

Our procyte can sometimes have a bit of a wobble and not give accurate breakdowns of the leukogram. Sometimes it's because things are really abnormal, I suspect there may be a component of maintenance that causes it sometimes though too.

Generally, like all labs, if you fill in a lab request form minimally with little history and not much to go on, you don't get much back. Especially with histo/cytology I've found. Putting a decent history and differentials will often give more comments from the pathologist. If you want to discuss the report with the pathologist you can often get through to them fairly easily too. They really push Ki67 and c-kit with MCTs, but the report always gives the mitotic index.

Can't tell you about costings etc as I'm not involved in that at all, but generally I'm quite happy with the service they provide. Being back-up on call now, the vetconnect plus service is good too - I can log in at home to look at bloods rather than having to have them described to me over the phone/have bad photos of printouts sent.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:33:45 GMT

The biggest problem we have with the istat is the very short dates on cartridges. Great machine but also the greatest disappointment because we just cannot use it efficiently!

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Judith Archbold — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:28:41 GMT

Re: electrolytes.

so far on the Catalyst One the electrolyte results seem to be ok

/ as expected. But to be honest I don't have an Istat etc. for comparison

and haven't as yet sent off bloods to TDDS for calibration checks .

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Andrew Kent — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:36:29 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

How do you find electrolytes on the Catalyst One? I would stop renting the Epoc to offset some of the cost but was worried by

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/small_animal/f/9/t/10885.aspx

(although that is about the Catalyst Dx not the Catalyst One). We are a standard 1st opinion practice so losing blood gases wouldn't be a disaster but I like to know if a blocked cat is about to crash!

[/quote]

To clarify regarding the thread quoted here - that was in a previous job I had and I have a feeling that we did get to the bottom of it and things improved but I can't remember the specifics of it now. I think we had to change blood tubes but could be mis-remembering.

Where I am now we use a procyte and I do find it very good (I am not convinced I find it any better than lasercytes I used previously) but like any haematology machine it needs validation with a blood smear. If you don't want to look at smears yourself then you are probably better to continue to send blood externally.

Andy

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Richard Carter — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:12:42 GMT

we also looking at upgrading from vettest + vetstat (electrolytes and blood gases), we do our own blood smears, easy skill to pick up if you prepared to invest in a bit of dye and a microscope and the BSAVA clin path book.

Have yet to go to a CPD meeting where the expert doesn't say to cross-check haematology with a blood smear - don't believe your machine.

Guys up the road from us went with the VetScan machines - about £30/month cheaper on lease and also had the 5 year guarantee whereas we would prefer the catalyst one as I like the dry slide and flexibility and as you say quite a lot of new slides being developed all the time - TT4s and fructosamine being probably our big draw cards plus being totally digital but Idexx only prepared to give one year guarantee - after this you have buy the maintenance contract at yet another 70-100/month depending how many pieces of the suite you took so in the end am sitting on my hands hoping the vettest doesn't conk out.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Laurence Webb — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 15:56:08 GMT

How do you find electrolytes on the Catalyst One? I would stop renting the Epoc to offset some of the cost but was worried by

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/small_animal/f/9/t/10885.aspx

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Judith Archbold — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 15:06:20 GMT

We have just got a Catalyst One and Lasercyte. Had them about a month now. Financially works out ok and great to have quick results. Idexx so far have give us good in- house traiining and follow- up support. Still send some bloods ( for the odd tests) and histology to TDDS though: they are just up the road from us ( in the New Forest) .

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:50:40 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]Obviously that is part of my reticence. The financial decision will be based on what we currently use plus what could be done in-house if we gain the ability to run T4, fructosamine etc that are currently outsourced. I can do the number crunching but it is only worth that if I am happy that the machines will perform as promised[/quote]

We currently have a Vet Test at the branch I work at, we are almost certainly going to replace it with an Idexx catalyst One, we already have one at another of our branches and the ability to run biochemistry, electrolytes and T4 on one machine is very useful (as well as fructosamine, phenobarb and UPC). We are also trying to decide if it makes financial sense to get a Procyte as well, again we have one at one of our other branches and are very pleased with the quality of the results, but we are crunching the numbers to see if it is worth getting one for the branch I work at.

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Laurence Webb — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:33:53 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Over the years we've done the opposite and seen a marked shift to external testing.[/quote] Us too, mainly to TDDS. Being able to run routine screens such as thyroid monitoring where a pathologist's input is not needed would be where this would have a place

[quote user="robloxley"]We get good discounts through our buying group[/quote]Likewise, but they are offering a significant discount in addition to buying group discounts for 5 years

[quote user="robloxley"]I wouldn't believe anyone who said they were the equal of a good reference lab with in-house pathologist checking every blood film[/quote]We would still be able to send films off for a haematologist to examine in combination with the Procyte scatter plots. That assumes the Procyte is reliable and the IDEXX haematologists interpret well. One of my previous concerns with pathology interpretation concerned a strongly regenerative anaemia that was characterised as non-regenerative. My attention was drawn to the pathologist error by the large number of reticulocytes and high MCV in the numbers.

[quote user="robloxley"]The internal medicine guys at idexx are good and helpful if you need to chat over a case.[/quote]Good to know

[quote user="robloxley"]We still send cytology and histology samples elsewhere...[/quote]Interesting...

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Laurence Webb — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:23:51 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We have experienced Idexx 'double glazing' sales techniques. When we looked at the figures it involved expected purchases well beyond anything realistic![/quote]

Obviously that is part of my reticence. The financial decision will be based on what we currently use plus what could be done in-house if we gain the ability to run T4, fructosamine etc that are currently outsourced. I can do the number crunching but it is only worth that if I am happy that the machines will perform as promised

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Ebay Number 261999572289. Not sure if this is the seller we used so there is a degree of caveat emptor![/quote] I've already got a VetTest (came with the practice and all paid off) and rent an Epoc for electrolytes, lactate etc and I am happy clinically with my set up so the only reason to replace anything is savings on consumables and external lab fees

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Idexx are the only people banned from the practice!!![/quote]Duly noted!

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 13:52:15 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]the ability to move more testing in-house[/quote]

Over the years we've done the opposite and seen a marked shift to external testing.

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]the discounts on external fees[/quote]

We get good discounts through our buying group

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]there is no saving if they are not good enough to replace a lot of external lab work[/quote]

I think the laser/procytes are much better then the impedence based haematology counters, but I wouldn't believe anyone who said they were the equal of a good reference lab with in-house pathologist checking every blood film. Added to this reference lab machines with a high throughput will result in cheaper costs, and all the lab QC is off your hands.

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]Are people generally happy with the service they provide nowadays?[/quote]

The internal medicine guys at idexx are good and helpful if you need to chat over a case. We still send cytology and histology samples elsewhere...

RE: Are the IDEXX Catalyst One and Procyle/Lasercyte any good?

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 13:35:43 GMT

Be very, very, very careful!

We have experienced Idexx 'double glazing' sales techniques. When we looked at the figures it involved expected purchases well beyond anything realistic!

We ended up telling the sales staff (who turned up en masse) to leave because they were here for much of the morning. We will not allow them back on the premises!

We ended up going for Abaxis and this seems to be the stuff that at least two of our referral practices use when TDDS are not available.

We replaced the original VetScan biochem machine with one imported from the US. A few months old, half the price (even taking into account import duties). Sold on Ebay. Seller was very helpful and bypassed the import duty con that Ebay run!

That was at least three years ago!

Again be very careful! Idexx are the only people banned from the practice!!!

An example: Ebay Number 261999572289. Not sure if this is the seller we used so there is a degree of caveat emptor!