WSAVA vaccination guidelines

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 18:05:11 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Live vaccines are stand alone. In an adult it only takes a single dose to protect a competent immune system.[/quote]

I'm 95% bothered about lepto, and that is killed.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Bob Russell — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 17:44:59 GMT

Live vaccines are stand alone. In an adult it only takes a single dose to protect a competent immune system. The recommendations seem to be that you give the 8 and 12 week, then give a six month booster. Next booster is at 18 months of age.

Clearly killed vaccines are more complicated but perhaps as much because it is more difficult to monitor antibody levels over a longer period.

Assuming maternally derived antibodies block the first two doses, they are not likely to do so at 6 months. Again less straight forward with killed components.

This would leave a puppy unprotected until six months old instead of a year.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 14:05:36 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]So the idea of a six month booster starts to make sense![/quote]

But does it really?

For a killed vaccine we need an effective primary course before we can boost. If MDA affects the 'take' of the primary course you have nothing to boost. 6 months is too long from the second injection of the primary course to really be considered a replacement for that.

I'm not sure what it hopes to achieve.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Rob Loxley — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 13:51:29 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Vaccinate more as youngsters and less as adults.[/quote]

I like the idea from a CPD meeting of vaccinating more animals but less frequently given we know about extended duration of immunity and ISS risks in cats

It is sufficiently cheap to vaccinate feral cats against feline panleukopenia and you will get good protection from a single dose in an adult cat to make it worth considering

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Bob Russell — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 13:04:28 GMT

So the idea of a six month booster starts to make sense!

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Anthony Todd — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 11:56:59 GMT

PS there was a fashion to measure a pup's titre before deciding on the best age for vaccination.

Trouble was the titres varied significantly between laboratories.....

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Anthony Todd — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 11:53:42 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]It's all well and good to say you don't have parvo in the area,[/quote]

A few things.

Vaccine success depends on the level of maternal antibody which, I suspect, is much higher than the manufacturers believe leading to "early" finish causing vaccine failure.

My guess is that vaccination may fail if started before even 16 weeks because of high levels of maternal antibody

Vaccine success being based on an immunological response to an antigen which may not be the same as the current, local, disease virus.

Dodgy experimental data on said "vaccine success".

My single experience with a major vaccine failure in a litter of alsatian pups was that the manufacturer paid up, in full, obviously implying that I was therefore at fault.

[I always made sure "12 weeks" was that, to the day or more, fortunately]

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

grumpyoldman — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 09:57:34 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]what about lepto? we certainly see occasional cases and they're not nice and potentially zoonotic so I'm quite happy about doing lepto vacc regularly[/quote]

I did see something i thought was lepto about 3 years ago ,fulLy vaccinated dog . Nothing on LIVER biopsies no PCR. Did not live long enough for paired sera, massive centrilobular necrosis, hepatic jaundice, abdominal pain ,vomiting, black urine etc . If they are in a working environment e.g. terriers in pest control we suggest every 4-6 months , but no one ever does , and we do not see any cases.

We keep looking, I am not convinced its out there ,the anecdotal unsubstantiated reports from Reps probably do not help , WSAVA took it out of the core ,so they are not convinced either. There was something in the vet rec recently about serology from PUO cases in Ireland . Which was also convincingly unconvincing, basically muddied the waters with cross reactivity in pre vaccinated dogs.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

KMurphy — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 09:53:15 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]It's all well and good to say you don't have parvo in the area, but if you do get a bad outbreak you're potentially going to have nearly a years worth of puppies potentially undervaccinated.[/quote]

This is the scenario I want to avoid. I didn't meant that I don't need to change because of that. I intend to change to the 12 week finish anyway, it's whether or not to introduce a 16 week vaccine as well that I can't decide.

It seems like there's still divided opinion on that one in general.

I certainly am not considering it for profit purposes! We are often already fully booked so adding in a third vaccination for every pup would be a bit of extra stress I could do without!

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Bob Russell — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 09:42:53 GMT

WSAVA recommendations clearly leave final decisions to the clinician and advise decisions are based on a risk assessment not a data sheet. Manufacturers have little reason to minimise vaccination numbers and it is easier and cheaper to just say give a booster every year! Data sheets are not law, often do not reflect independent opinions and frequently are just not that scientific!

I vaccinate all my patients in the way I vaccinate my own pets. If it is good enough for them it is good enough for my patients. I would like 100% protection but have to accept this is unlikely!

Vaccinate more as youngsters and less as adults.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Braden Collins — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 01:00:44 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

To be honest, I haven't seen a case of parvovirus in the eight years I've been here (although I'm sure one will turn up this week now!) so it's not that disease incidence is particularly high in the area.

I did wonder about the off license use but WSAVA seem very critical of the datasheets and manufacturer recommendations in general. It would be nice if they could all come to some agreement on it. I suppose unless you had a vaccine reaction at the third vaccination there wouldn't be an issue?

It is good to know that others among you aren't being too forceful about the third vaccination. I'll maybe make it 8 and 12 weeks instead of 10 and see how things go from there.

[/quote]

I worked in a practice for a few years where they did a 10-12 week finish. Hadn't seen parvo for years in the area and experienced no problems. Suddenly there was a parvo outbreak, and 5 dogs which had a 12 week finish came down with parvo. They changed back to the 16 week finish and despite parvo still being very bad in the area there hasn't been another breakdown there.

It's all well and good to say you don't have parvo in the area, but if you do get a bad outbreak you're potentially going to have nearly a years worth of puppies potentially undervaccinated. I wouldn't dream of going back to the early finish.

As for socialisation time, during the summer when we have our outbreaks we recommend 10 days after the final vax, where as during the cooler months where we rarely see parvo we recommend 2 weeks after the 10-12 week vaccination as we feel the risk:benefit ratio changes depending on the season.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Aine Seavers — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 23:13:52 GMT

Exactly Michael! And the courts will see it as the letter of the law.

The one size fits all was the WSAVA 2010 approach but with vaccine failures due to soil microorganisms in some areas inhibiting vaccine take, with different herd immunities and now with the acceptance the the non-responders(black n tans) do still exist and not wiped out by the 1980s epidemic

then the RCT used in the vaccine trial to get the global licence (10 dogs of a genetically bred line of super-responders in 100% herd immunitu, less than 3 years old, SPF so no co factors of corona and e,coli to trigger the codisease of parvo clinical signs, on an SPF ground) is even less relevant than most RCT to the patients we see in practice.

Here feline panleuk back to levels not seen for 30years so much so that new vets getting podcasts to bring them up to speed. The new guidelines now admit at risk cats need yearly Flu(any cat who goes out is at risk and any whose owners feed strays or have strays in their yard at risk)so wonder how badly that 2010 advice to go to 3rly in cats must have gone.

At the end of the day, Intervet has sponsored the global vaccine committees and meetings and literature to send out to clients via vets(as it we are their wing people) so one will only get what Intervet wants most to hear not what each of us needs to know.

I give early finish, have done for 28yrs but if you read the new guidelines, a pup now needs a 16 week, a 24 week a 52 week vaccine as well- so how can my one vaccine for a pup being replaced by 4 under the age of 12 months be reducing vaccination adverse risk to a dog?

I practice customised individual care for every pet who comes in as reflecting the disease risk for that specific location at that moment in time.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 21:23:09 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]WSAVA recommendations are world wide recommendations! They are not a one size fits all. [/quote]

Then why even bother? What is relevant in rural practice in North Yorkshire is likely to be different in central London. Why don't BSAVA get together every 5 years at congress - invite vets, immunologists, VMD and vaccine manufacturers and come up with a UK wide consensus.

The vaccines are different. The diseases are different. It strikes me as odd that this document would make any of us chose to do things differently. I honestly would like to know how the UK drug companies would take a vaccine failure if done in accordance with guidelines other than the data sheet. I've been dealing with various vaccine 'failures' in large animals and the first thing they do is look at the vaccine schedule. They wash their hands of the problem when the data sheet says primary course 4 weeks apart and the records show it was 6 weeks.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Rob Loxley — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 21:06:53 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]one vaccine every 3 years or a blood test at 4-5 years old. Immucomb . They all have protective levels.[/quote]

what about lepto? we certainly see occasional cases and they're not nice and potentially zoonotic so I'm quite happy about doing lepto vacc regularly

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

grumpyoldman — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 20:37:35 GMT

I had a Parvo puppy last weekend, its endemic here 1-2 a month, all none vaccinated puppies. Not seen a CDV since the mid 1990s. CAV-1 not seen since the early 1990s. Lepto ? about 4 in 30 years. All were fully vaccinated . We may just be lucky ?

vaccines at 8w and 12w one booster vaccine 12 months later ,one vaccine every 3 years or a blood test at 4-5 years old. Immucomb . They all have protective levels.

Depends how much you need the bums on seats , and routine work and sales that annual injection recalls generate ?

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

KMurphy — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:24:15 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] I am considering a change to the two part and giving the first booster at six months of age. Subsequent booster is then at 18 months.[/quote]

This is interesting too. Another protocol to ponder... Even further off datasheet recommendations though...

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

KMurphy — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:21:14 GMT

It is good to know that others among you aren't being too forceful about the third vaccination. I'll maybe make it 8 and 12 weeks instead of 10 and see how things go from there.

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Bob Russell — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:13:50 GMT

WSAVA recommendations are world wide recommendations! They are not a one size fits all. There are countries where lepto is non core and plenty (including the UK) where it should be considered core. They might have come up with a more user friendly term than core and non-core!

I try to do a three part vacc or compromise with a later second vaccination. I am considering a change to the two part and giving the first booster at six months of age. Subsequent booster is then at 18 months. Should mop up stragglers at the six month stage rather than at a year. Still thinking though!

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 17:05:23 GMT

I can't really take them seriously when they consider leptospirosis 'non core'. We see lepto multiple times every year, with parvo occasionally. Some farmers and working dogs we just do for lepto to save cost.

We use the Eurican vaccines, so a 12 week finish is the earliest. Happy with the vaccines, and never seen disease in a properly vaccinated dog.

There could also be conflict if you were using them against the data sheet recommendation if there was a vaccine failure. Would people be getting off licence consent for every vaccine?

RE: WSAVA vaccination guidelines

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 08 Feb 2016 16:44:20 GMT

I stick to 8 and 12 weeks with a 2 week quarantine after but tell people its OK to socialise in an enclosed environment with healthy vaccinated dogs and to take the pup out in their arms/a carrier to the park down the road etc to habituate them. Alternatively if they'd had the 2nd vaccine at 10 weeks I tell them they must come back at 14-16 for a third but they can go walkies 2 weeks after the 10 week vaccine. I 'recommend' a 16 week for all dogs even with a 12 week finish but positively stress it in large black and tans. I've not seen any pups get CPV/CDV at less than 5 months if they've had the 2nd vaccine at 10 weeks so I feel its a pretty safe protocol.

Incidentally my practice saw a CPV case in an un-vaccinated pup some idiot bought off Gumtree last week fortunately I was away so didn't have to deal with it. That's the first we've seen in years hopefully its not the start of something.