Urgent advice needed!

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Anthony Todd — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 00:40:18 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Like children - a little tap does no harm. Depends how much of a little shit the dog or child is.

I'm not advocating beating them within an inch of their life, but a tap on the nose is fine by me.

[/quote]

That's exactly all I did....

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Linda Filshie — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:40:16 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

I'd be pretty f'ing pissed off if anyone hit mine or a client's dog - whether present or not.

[/quote]

Like children - a little tap does no harm. Depends how much of a little shit the dog or child is.

I'm not advocating beating them within an inch of their life, but a tap on the nose is fine by me.

[/quote]

taken this off to a tangent thread

RE: Urgent advice needed!

grumpyoldman — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:28:01 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]the owner would learn to warn the next poor vet to muzzle the thing or risk getting bitten...[/quote]

sadly usually they just take it somewhere else with comments like "it did not like the other vet or they hurt it/frightened it " the bit where its munched through someones tendons gets omitted from the tale.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:24:55 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

I'd be pretty f'ing pissed off if anyone hit mine or a client's dog - whether present or not.

[/quote]

Like children - a little tap does no harm. Depends how much of a little shit the dog or child is.

I'm not advocating beating them within an inch of their life, but a tap on the nose is fine by me.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:40:08 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

I'd be pretty f'ing pissed off if anyone hit mine or a client's dog - whether present or not.

[/quote]

And the owner obviously was too, and I was wrong, which was why I recounted the story!

Hopefully, either the dog would learn not to bite when touched, or the owner would learn to warn the next poor vet to muzzle the thing or risk getting bitten...

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:25:29 GMT

Sorry duplicated

RE: Urgent advice needed!

grumpyoldman — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:20:50 GMT

I do remember a friend getting a complaint over his notes that remarked upon an "inpatient" enquiry from a concerned owner who objected because she felt that she had always had enormous amounts of patience and had never been "impatient" with anyone. They sorted that one out over about two months ,but no apology was forthcoming.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Linda Filshie — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:13:08 GMT

I'd be pretty f'ing pissed off if anyone hit mine or a client's dog - whether present or not.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:39:02 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]gave it a quick clout! [/quote]

Yep. back in the day when Staffies were flavour of the month a client said "Please don't hit my dog" when I whacked it across the nose for trying to bite me when I tried to [from memory] look in it's ear, not pain related.

First time the spoilt bloody animal had ever been disciplined in it's life....

He gathered the dog from the exam table and left the premises...

I went round to his house and apologised; which he accepted. Never saw dog or client again.... Mind you he didn't go the RCVS....

Moral for newbies, and colonials: Never ever, ever, whack a client's pet in their presence.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Bob Russell — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 10:16:35 GMT

The only run in I have had with the DC involved a young Aussie locum. A boxer he was treating misbehaved and he gave it a quick clout! Exactly what I would have done if it had been my dog but hardly good PR for a vet.

He was concerned that both he and the client were at risk of being injured and to his credit it did the job!

I wrote back to the PIC that whilst this was not a form of action I would recommend, this was a very competent young vet that I would happily employ again (after having a quiet chat over coffee!).

Many, many years ago and in an era when smacking children was a little more acceptable!!!

RE: Urgent advice needed!

grumpyoldman — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 23:52:35 GMT

We had one about 5 years ago , it was someone i had sacked after she had a pop at an assistant who saved her cats life and repaired its ruptured diaphragm. The grumble was over money , I sacked her and She complained about my letter which said "its always regrettable when the client vet relationship breaks down", she complained that we had never had "a relationship" she had not slept with me and did not fancy me, and she wanted me to apologise for those remarks and retract them .

It took the RCVS 3 months to work out that she was a keen watcher of TV soaps.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 17:41:04 GMT

I'll have been qualified 25 years this year! In that time I have had one RCVS complaint (touch wood). It was 20 years ago now, a horse case. I was called out early one Sunday morning to an old mare that was down, I put her to sleep in the end. I can't remember all the details, but the owner was in hysterics when I arrived and I did end up losing my cool and swore at her. The crux of their complaint was that I took too long to get there. This was in the early days of mobile phones so we also used landlines. The practice I worked for was great - they had all the phone records so were able to show these to the RCVS and the case was thrown out, although I did get a bit of a rap on the knuckles for my conduct! I knocked the LA work on the head shortly after that, I do miss the farm work, but don't miss the equine clients one bit ;)

One thing about complaints in general is that some practices handle them well, others handle them really badly. Kind of take it personally, kow tow to the clients unreasonable demands which causes a lot of resentment from the employees.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:49:23 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] I would telephone most complainants and ask how they wished to resolve things and was usually met with a similar response along the lines "it's not the money, but if you refund our £517.24 we won't say anymore about it" the more intelligent ones would throw in words such as negligence and mis/missed diagnosis. Dreadful job.[/quote]

Yet some practices would do that for a quiet life. Not the vets, but the non-vet management. Really irks me sometimes.

I had a complaint (internal, not RCVS) against me once that I had refused to give a cat antibiotics. They had initially come in asking for an injection to give the cat so it would go to sleep then pass away peacefully in it's sleep. Told her there wasn't really one, cat had a bad case of gingivitis so I have a steroid jab rather than the convenia injection she wanted. Letter of complaint smacked of someone googling medical terms that just didn't fit in the sentences properly. At one point in the letter I was negligent not to have done blood cultures...

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Clive Ansell — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:32:30 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Wheadon"]But the fact that you can remember them all so clearly even nearly 20 years on, shows what an impact even totally unfounded complaints have...[/quote]

I guess they stick in our minds because they are unpleasant and there are very few of them.

In my case 2 of these complaints were when I was a fairly new grad and they bothered me at the time, despite a good reassuring and supportive boss who backed me to the hilt. It would be water off a ducks back now if I knew in my heart I was not in the wrong.

I forget the figures, but from memory most complaints to the RCVS are unfounded and are dismissed.

I once did a 6 week locum for an OOH clinic, and part of that role was dealing with client complaints. Seemed to get lots of them, and almost all were garbage and were money related. I would telephone most complainants and ask how they wished to resolve things and was usually met with a similar response along the lines "it's not the money, but if you refund our £517.24 we won't say anymore about it" the more intelligent ones would throw in words such as negligence and mis/missed diagnosis. Dreadful job.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Sarah Wheadon — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:58:11 GMT

But the fact that you can remember them all so clearly even nearly 20 years on, shows what an impact even totally unfounded complaints have...

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Clive Ansell — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:05:02 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]What was the third one?[/quote]

Third one was years ago, 1997 I think and was against both my boss and I.

I saw the dog, an aging SBT, September time for a medication check for on going preds, dog fine, owner no concerns. Boss was presented with dog (pre OOH clinic days) on Boxing day, collapsed and with what looked like renal failure. Despite a guarded prognosis being given, owners wanted everything doing, cost not an issue etc etc. Dog died despite treatment.

When a bill was sent, a vicious letter of complaint was sent by return accusing us both of negligence (me because I saw the dog 3 months previously, the consult was rushed and I didn't run bloods to monitor) and obtaining money by deception. We were threatened with the local and national newspapers, a local radio phone in thing and the RCVS.

We responded with a letter expressing sympathy at the loss of their dog, but pointed out that although the outcome was not successful, it was predicted and all treatment was discussed and agreed, and that the account is still payable. Owners took it to the RCVS. In this case the RCVS dealt with it quickly and efficiently, blew it out of the water, and responded saying that there was no issue of misconduct and the issue of fees is outside of their remit and a civil matter. Boss took clients to court and got his money.

A clear cut case of, I have no wish to pay my bill.

Some folk are just arse feeding lowlife sh1te, just the way it is.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:37:11 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I've had unreasonable complaints against me one which they threw out and wrote to the complainant saying they could not uphold the complaint but that they were sorry they had not formed a good relationship with their vet. I was furious as I had not such fluffy words from them and complained about their attitude especially as this was a nasty aggressive, vindictive client with absolutely no grounds for complaint. That's is what pissed me off rather than any stress over the complaint which I knew was tosh.[/quote]

Been there, done it, bought the T shirt.

I have had 3 RCVS complaints against me in 20 years. All 3 were blown out of the water at the first fence as being rubbish, which they were. The written replies to the clients in 2 of the cases defy any logical comprehension.

1) fairly new grad, I see 2 kittens with flu symptoms, examine and give injectables. owners have no money so don't pay for it. They are told they can take synulox drops when they return with the money. They were also redirected to local RSPCA and PDSA clinics to see if they were eligible for help. Synulox not collected, kittens die, owners write to the RCVS accusing me of refusing to treat their rescue kittens, which of course I did not. Nice touchy feely letter to them saying sorry that the profession didn't meet your expectations, and a letter to me saying it may have been prudent and in the interests of good public relations to have dispensed the meds -my boss was furious. And this took months, not weeks.

2) 3 year old Lhasa Apso, 10am, presented for booster vaccinations. nad on c/e, and no history of any illnesses at all

6.30pm same day, acutely off hindlimbs, rushed to local OOH clinic and referred to RCVS specialist for spinal surgery. pts on table. Angry client the next day, had to be removed by the police for threatening violence, and stating he was £4000 out of pocket and he was "going to get someone for it". Complaint to RCVS that I had either caused or missed dogs spinal disc problem.

Again, nice touchy feely letter to client saying no issue of misconduct, but that he could pursue a claim for a mis or missed diagnosis through the civil courts (despite the fact the dog presented for a vaccine, and was not showing any signs and had no history of spinal disease, and a statement from the RCVS recognised specialist diplomat surgeon saying it was a time bomb waiting to go off and could not have been foreseen) again this took months rather than weeks.

[/quote]

What was the third one?

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:23:26 GMT

I think I've had 5 complaints in total in 40 years. All were thrown out before PIC even but I didn't lose a minute's sleep over any of them as i knew they were all totally unreasonable. I have written to the RCVS asking them what protection we have against vindictive clients making spurious claims - they declined to answer.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:14:51 GMT

I am horrified to hear this type of letter being sent out by the RCVS. It would be nice to think they have grown a set of b+lls since.

The only link that I might see between vaccination and an acute disc problem would be linked to lifting the dog onto the table! Hardly a missed or misdiagnosis!

A client has sent a complaint to the RCVS about another vet (not local). I have sent in a letter confirming my concerns about potentially dangerous sedation practices but neither of us have heard back. It was months ago!

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:06:23 GMT

Obviously all the veterinary surgeons on PI cpmmittee at that time bunked off the spinal lectures, so didn't realise that discs pop suddenly!

Wynne

Charitable explanation

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Clive Ansell — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:56:47 GMT

Been there, done it, bought the T shirt.

2) 3 year old Lhasa Apso, 10am, presented for booster vaccinations. nad on c/e, and no history of any illnesses at all

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Jo Dyer — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:34:45 GMT

Sorry, you didn't think I'd be able to resist though, did you?

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Jo Dyer — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:33:40 GMT

[quote user="Sam"]Any ideas for helping this dog and keeping my team safe? Thanks![/quote]

Animal welfare is important. Vet welfare is even more important, because if we don't look after the carers, they can't look after the cared-for.

From the Guidance to the Code, amended summer 2014:

3.21 Owners are responsible for transporting their animals to a veterinary practice, including in emergency situations. The RCVS encourages owners to think about how they can do this and make plans before an emergency arises. Examples include their own transport, a family member, friend or neighbour’s transport, an animal ambulance or a taxi service that will transport animals.

3.22 In all but exceptional circumstances, the interests of companion animals will be best served by being taken to a veterinary practice, where the attending veterinary surgeon has access to a full range of equipment, veterinary medicines and appropriate facilities.

3.36 ........Exceptional circumstances might include an entrapped animal that cannot be moved prior to veterinary attention.

It remains to be seen whether a vet will ever again be disciplined for failing to visit a small animal. I think it is extremely unlikely.

[quote user="Sam"] "may have dislocated its shoulder"[/quote]

Why are we giving any credence at all to the owner's diagnosis? How much force does it take to dislocate a 60kg GSD's shoulder??

Personally, the decision as to whether I would go or not would depend on lots of factors, including how busy I was in the practice, how well I know the client, etc. I wouldn't feel comfortable sending an employee though, unless I went with them.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:27:40 GMT

[quote user="Catriona MacIntyre"]The fact that it was the owners responsibility and not mine did not mean that the RCVS just turned round and said "oh well that's OK then". It was an extremely stressful time. Even worse, it need not have been that way at all. Frustration... part of life![/quote]The fact is that the RCVS have to investigate each complaint but that doesn't mean they will uphold it. I assume that they threw this one out. But I would have considered it so outrageous that I would have expected them to do so and would not have been stressed by it at all. As you say it is all part of life. I've had unreasonable complaints against me one which they threw out and wrote to the complainant saying they could not uphold the complaint but that they were sorry they had not formed a good relationship with their vet. I was furious as I had not such fluffy words from them and complained about their attitude especially as this was a nasty aggressive, vindictive client with absolutely no grounds for complaint. That's is what pissed me off rather than any stress over the complaint which I knew was tosh.

RE: Urgent advice needed!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 08:51:32 GMT

Catriona When did this investigation occur? I attended an RCVS regional meeting in 2003, Apractice in Merthyr used an OOH service in Cardiff. The Merthyr practice alsp had a branch surgery mid way between Merthyr and Brecon. Clients (understandably) didn't want to drive all the way to Cardiff in the middle of the night, so tended to phone 1 of the Brecon practices. One of the attendees at the meeting was a partner in the Brecon practice, who was (understanably) miffed about it, He was informed by the then President of Royal College that if asked, he would have to attend.

RCVS guidance has changed since then, so I'm wondering if your experience was before or aftr the change

Wynne