EDTs

RE: EDTs

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:38:28 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]One problem is that many equine veterinary surgeons have so little training (or interest) in dentistry that they are afraid to question or challenge the apparently expert EDT.[/quote]

I don't know about other vet schools, but my equine rotation at Langford was just before the new equine surgery was built, I'd say a good 50-60% of the cases we saw was dental work. Prior to that, in 4th year we had a lecture series on equine dentistry.

But it was Henry Tremaine teaching us; considering I am incredibly non-horsey but even I was interested and enjoyed it.

RE: EDTs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 03:20:35 GMT

That shouldn't be difficult - you've got another 23 hours, 23 mins to do it!

I'm supervising a post-op gastric torsion, before anyone asks.

Wynne

RE: EDTs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 00:37:48 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I ended up almost in a stand up 3 way argument over a horse 'dentist' registered with the WWAED - initially said not on BEVA list so no. He claimed higher trained, and RCVS approved. Went too and fro until RCVS agreed that it was OK. How the hell am I supposed to keep up, when BEVA can't keep their list updated![/quote]

They do claim "higher trained", while we say "but trained to do what?" "RCVS approval" for the WW exam as well as the BEVA/BVDA exam is what is within the limited power of RCVS: that is to say, the declaration that there will be no disciplinary action against a vet who co-operates with an EDT who has passed either the BEVA/BVDA exam or the WWAED exam. That is all.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Currently the BAEDT is the only association for dental technicians which BEVA endorses
and encourages its members to support[/quote]

Exactly. And BEVA/BVDA stand by that. It doesn't mean that some WW people are not excellent, or that a vet should not co-operate with a WW guy that they know to be good.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]How the hell am I supposed to keep up, when BEVA can't keep their list updated[/quote]

The list of BAEDT members is updated pretty regularly.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It always makes me feel quite awkward being complicit in allowing people to do things that are illegal - even if it seems universally condoned.[/quote]

I said it was a weird situation. An uncomfortable one. But I think you have to relax a little, when it's a matter of a transparently qualified (i.e. BEVA/BVDA exam) EDT doing Category 2 procedures. Then you'll feel more ready to protest strongly when some bloke, qualified or not, starts doing Category 3 stuff.... and even boasts about it on Facebook.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] I'm not sure the solution we have is a good one - wouldn't BVDA, RCVS, BEVA have been better pointing out the illegality of the work and supported prosecutions?[/quote]

Well, first of all, it's not a solution – it's working towards a solution, which will be an Exemption Order under the VSA for qualified EDTs. In theory, this will come, as soon as we can get all "stakeholders" (silly word) to agree on the details.... and I have to say that WWAED are standing in the way..... then DEFRA can start its cogs into glacial movement. It is this expression of intent for an exemption order which is the sole basis of the RCVS declaration I mentioned above.

Secondly, when this working to a solution began, back in 1997, it was already decades too late to suggest that we could just squash these people. The trade, or para-profession, or profession, whatever, of "horse dentist" was already well established. Moreover, as long as they stick within the limits of Cat 2, they have a useful part to play in horse welfare: somebody worked out that it would be physically impossible for veterinary surgeons to give every horse in the country the routine attention it may require: the man-hours required are just too great in number.

It was clear that the way forward was to work with EDTs (and to persuade them to stop calling themselves dentists.... the suggestion to make EDT the official title was one of my modest contributions to the process); to provide good training and to provide a solidly reputable exam. Then to work for the exemption order, which would at last mean that the good ones were working legally.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] but there are some horror stories of unregulated ones running around completely under the radar - in general the horse owners don't know the difference.[/quote]

I quite agree. But it is so difficult to achieve a prosecution it verges on the impossible.

Sorry, I could go on and on and on about this, but I'll spare you, and anyway I've got to finish decorating the tree tonight.

RE: EDTs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:59:44 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]realised that all of the occlusal surfaces of the cheek teeth were now as smooth as polished marble.[/quote]

Yes. They are actually taught to do that in the best known American "colleges".

Some of them advise – it's even official advice from one of the bad "equine dentist" organisations – that one may expect a horse to have difficulty eating for up to six weeks after dentistry. My advice to the owner is that if the horse is not eating a couple of hours after attention, there's something wrong.

Be suspicious of anyone who calls themselves an equine dentist. Be suspicious of anyone who goes on and on about "exaggerated transverse ridges".

One problem is that many equine veterinary surgeons have so little training (or interest) in dentistry that they are afraid to question or challenge the apparently expert EDT.

RE: EDTs

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:40:05 GMT

it's a stupid, messy situation. I don't do much horse work, but we are a mixed practice and do get asked to sedate for the 'horse dentist' from time to time. Our policy was written in line with BEVA guidance that we would only sedate for people on the BAEDT list. The BEVA document (attached) on the website says:

Currently the BAEDT is the only association for dental technicians which BEVA endorses
and encourages its members to support

I ended up almost in a stand up 3 way argument over a horse 'dentist' registered with the WWAED - initially said not on BEVA list so no. He claimed higher trained, and RCVS approved. Went too and fro until RCVS agreed that it was OK. How the hell am I supposed to keep up, when BEVA can't keep their list updated!

It always makes me feel quite awkward being complicit in allowing people to do things that are illegal - even if it seems universally condoned. I suppose it's a failure of the vet profession to do a good job in horses mouths. I'm not sure the solution we have is a good one - wouldn't BVDA, RCVS, BEVA have been better pointing out the illegality of the work and supported prosecutions?

I know there are some good equine dental techs, but there are some horror stories of unregulated ones running around completely under the radar - in general the horse owners don't know the difference.

RE: EDTs

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:08:17 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]It is the ones with no qualifications or, sometimes worse, 'American qualifications' (ie. a week training in the Midwest and a certificate proclaiming them to be proficient and fully educated) who worry me[/quote]

Ha! I saw practice in New Jersey 15 years ago - big horse population, owners usually rich though not necessarily always the most knowledgeable. Went on one call with vet to sedate for a horse dentist of some description - I think he did call himself an EDT and had some sort of training (of which he was proud) and a very confident air. He was also proud of his shiny vast array of power tools. Well, he set to and a while later proclaimed a job well done and invited me to stick my hand in to admire the results. I think he thought I was terribly impressed as my eyebrows shot up, my jaw dropped open and I let out a muttered "Wow" as I realised that all of the occlusal surfaces of the cheek teeth were now as smooth as polished marble. I shut my mouth again and didn't open it till we were safely back in the car on the way home.

In fairness to the Yanks, we did go out to sedate for another EDT who quietly worked away with hand tools for about twice the length of time: I had a feel of that mouth afterwards and to my (very lightly tutored) mind it felt perfect.

Of course I'm sure there are power-tool abusers in every country, just thought it was interesting that you have also come across people with too much confidence in the American letters they have decided to put after their name.

RE: EDTs

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:08:23 GMT

We also will only sedate for people on the BEVA list of approved EDTs, as we know that part of that is that it ensures they have indemnity insurance. We work with a local very good EDT, who does some clinics at our practice which benefits both him and us.

There are, however some real cowboys out there...

RE: EDTs

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 19:02:25 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The site software seems to be determined to b****r up my paragraphs.[/quote]

Sorry, tangent seems to right justify replies. Will get techies onto it.

RE: EDTs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:44:31 GMT

Addendum:

The site software seems to be determined to b****r up my paragraphs. I had hell's own job to get it to put the words in the right order. So I'm sorry if my post seems a little severe.