An observation - worming puppies

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Bob Russell — Sat, 05 Dec 2015 11:03:09 GMT

Enough clients report an 'outpouring' of worms to make me confident that routine worming of puppies is a necessity.

I don't care if 50%/60% or 100% have worms, they all should be wormed. It should be repeated regularly throughout puppyhood and regularly through life. Most owners are likely to prefer to give tablets than submit samples for testing!

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 17:55:40 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]Rather than say all puppies have worms, can we compromise that currently I / you believe it's highly likely all puppies have worms BUT no one has actually recently checked if this still holds true for apparently normal puppies?[/quote]I actually said, "I still work on the basis of 100% infestation even in apparently healthy pups. Experience and epidemiology teaches me it would be foolish to think otherwise". Which unless you're totally pedantic I believe is much the same thing!

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Ashley Rubens — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 17:50:20 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]Personally, I do worm all puppies that have any signs or lack conclusive evidence of proper treatment[/quote]Is that not an assumption - how can you possibly tell if the pup doesn't have worms in these circumstances unless you faecal test them? That is not going to happen often in practice so the best policy is to treat them as a precaution.

[/quote]

It's not that statement I'm trying to disagree with! This is a forum to discuss things, and the original post was an observation on the possibility of a reduced prevalence of worms in puppies presented at first vaccination.

Maybe I'm mis communicating, I'm trying to say we should be a little more open minded not that you should change your protocol. However strong the assumption it's dangerous to present sweeping statements as fact. Rather than say all puppies have worms, can we compromise that currently I / you believe it's highly likely all puppies have worms BUT no one has actually recently checked if this still holds true for apparently normal puppies?

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 09:31:07 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"] I was also taught not to make assumptions -[/quote]Unless you are going to faecal test every pup I would rather make the assumption that they have worms than not.

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Ashley Rubens — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 09:11:17 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Do you consider your parasitology lectures to be anecdote?

Wynne

[/quote]

Not at all, but I was also taught not to make assumptions - it is possible the mother had worms, it is possible she was not wormed correctly or even at all and it is possible the puppy was incorrectly wormed. It is not definite.

Personally, I do worm all puppies that have any signs or lack conclusive evidence of proper treatment, my point was it's dangerous to be so certain about something you have no evidence for.

The OP was discussing the possibility that the incidence of gastrointestinal worms in the pet dog population may have declined due to improved treatments / management - can you argue against that without any evidence? Can you argue against anything without evidence?

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 08:56:00 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]Im not trying to be personal, but it's dangerous to be so assertive on (possibly) incomplete evidence[/quote]Be as personal as you like, I'm not about to throw my toys out of the pram, but I'm not sure who this aimed at George, Richard or me.

Whatever, I can't see what anecdote is involved here. We know that worms are passed to the pups in utero, the vast majority of breeders don't worm their bitches in pregnancy so it is not a huge leap of faith to assume the vast majority of pups are going to be infested even if the mother has been regularly wormed before - she is still carrying the burden from her puppyhood waiting for her hormones to release them. If the epidemiology has changed please let me know. Until then my take on what you call anecdote is that it is common sense. Do you faecal test every pup to prove they haven't got worms?

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 08:32:50 GMT

Do you consider your parasitology lectures to be anecdote?

Wynne

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Ashley Rubens — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 20:47:06 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Richard Carter"]could be as high as 10-15% with visible worm burden?[/quote]I'm glad you used the word visible because despite George's reservations I still work on the basis of 100% infestation even in apparently healthy pups. Experience and epidemiology teaches me it would be foolish to think otherwise.

[/quote]

Out of interest, do you do faecal testing in these apparently healthy pups? Or do you mean Anecdote and epidemiology teach you...

Im not trying to be personal, but it's dangerous to be so assertive on (possibly) incomplete evidence!

RE: An observation - worming puppies

George Cooper — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 20:29:22 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]

How long you got? ReelVets Ceilidh band with 4 other vets is a starter! Fretless 5 string bass there. And in other situations a number of Tanglewood Guitar products, an Ozark GuitarZouki (!!), and a Vintage mandolin, none of them with any especial proficiency but enough to get by without blushing.

[/quote]

Nice, I have a banjolele, a 12 string Ovation out for repairs, two cheap nylon acoustics and a decent steel Washburn. I'm no Eric Clapton either, but I get by. Not part of any bands, but someday... :)

I will confess that I've never heard of a GuitarZuki - I look forward to being enlightened! :)

[/quote]

a guitarzouki is a bouzouki, often used in Irish traditional music, but with a guitar body on it. I've always found that the standard bouzouki is a bit tinny sounding, difficult to hold, and a heck of a stretch for fingering jigs'n'reels. This instrument has a slightly shorter scale length and is more playable, but by having a quality wood guitar body just sounds terrific. It's loud, mellow, tuneful, and adds so much to any mix (I often play 'sessions' at Baskerville Hall, near Hay......).

The turn-on to Tanglewood began with their 12 string, large bodied guitar. For 40 years I've had a sweet yet solid yet chiming yet intricate sound of a 12 string inside my head - and suddenly I heard it, having owned loads of other 12 strings in vain hope! From there I found their quality, and value for money was unsurpassed, and acquired a parlour, a dreadnought, a luthier built, and a fretless acoustic bass, all of which are just magical and make playing a joy!

not gone (yet) for banjo, uke, or resonator guitars or whatever. Got enough for now, and I haven't mentioned the 6 piece rock band and kit from a 7 house hamlet yet!!

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 19:38:07 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

[/quote]

I will confess that I've never heard of a GuitarZuki - I look forward to being enlightened! :)

RE: An observation - worming puppies

George Cooper — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 16:33:06 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]

i think I'll make my excuses and go and tune a guitar or two. So much more fruitful and satisfying.

[/quote]

Ooh, what do you play?

[/quote]

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 16:11:00 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

i think I'll make my excuses and go and tune a guitar or two. So much more fruitful and satisfying.

[/quote]

Ooh, what do you play?

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 14:38:33 GMT

Children, behave or I will pick you up by your ears and bash your heads together!

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 14:02:02 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"] I'll make my excuses and go and tune a guitar or two. [/quote]I'll send my younger daughter around to jam with you then, you will find her far more forthright in her views than me - I bring them up well!

PS here's the yawn emoticon for you

RE: An observation - worming puppies

George Cooper — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 13:40:02 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]Is it small wonder that some newbies feel disinclined to post for opinion in these pages and run the risk of being in "cloud cuckoo land" or whatever. You could do well to examine your responses Martin and consider what you say and how you say it.[/quote]Well George you did say in your OP that you were throwing yourself upon our mercy. In that case you've got to be prepared take the negative as well as the positive. And I would hope that an intelligent newbie would see the wink emoticon and realise that although there is never smoke without fire it was somewhat tongue in cheek. As for everyone else - well they're used to me being a smart Alec which is why my posts nearly always get 5 stars until the odd person with no sense of humour marks them down!

[/quote]

Well, sorry, can't find a pretty little picture for "yawn" - so the written word must suffice.

I'm pleased you're proud - and appreciate your enlightening me of your prowess... ...and before the words "terrier" and "bone" get applied to all of this tedium i think I'll make my excuses and go and tune a guitar or two. So much more fruitful and satisfying.

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 13:36:02 GMT

They all have worms unless dates and name of appropriate wormer are known. If this information is known, then they probably have worms. Treatment then follows!!

I have pots of parasites on the shelf to show owners. 100% compliance usually drops to 50% within three months!

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 12:36:26 GMT

I would say I see approximately 1 or 2 pups a month that pass a worm or two after worming. I normally give a worming tablet (milbemax) at the 1st vaccination, then check at the second if anything passed. They then get stronghold (part of the vaccination package) at the 2nd vacc, with instructions to pop in monthly to weigh the dog and get another wormer.

My approach to clients that question it and insist the puppy has already been wormed, is that it's not just for the puppy; it's a public health matter as well. They accept that.

Few months ago someone brought in their cat which had vomited up a whole tapeworm, about 30cm long. I (sadly) got quite excited about seeing a whole one and it now resides in a pot in my consulting room to show people.

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 12:18:10 GMT

RE: An observation - worming puppies

George Cooper — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 11:45:15 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

I think, Martin, ignoring your previous attempts at belittling a genuine question at every opportunity, that here you have actually managed to identify the nub of my original post! And that was that worm burdens carried visibly as actual writhing masses of voided worms, or even as wondrous eggs might have been reduced in recent years after sustained and effective worming techniques. No - it isn't a scientific question seeking incontrovertible proof from egg counts, but using the gift that many of us develop over the years - that of pure observation hopefully unclouded by judgemental blinkers or unalloyed cynicism.

Is it small wonder that some newbies feel disinclined to post for opinion in these pages and run the risk of being in "cloud cuckoo land" or whatever. You could do well to examine your responses Martin and consider what you say and how you say it. Being a seeming smart Alec isn't a desirable trait.

However - thank you for this latest insight and for allowing me to drag the discussion back to the original premise.

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 11:20:15 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]....benefit and low income clients, no money, expensive puppies such as Bulldogs, pugs, French bulldogs, with bling and unable to afford vaccines and wormers etc - If I'm not yet as cynical as you Martin I soon will be.[/quote]I usually bite my tongue and get one with it but I let rip on one a little while ago when they suggested if I loved animals I would give them their treatment for free with words to this effect: 'I'm already paying for your benefit from my taxes and you now expect me to pay for your pet as well. If you spent a bit less on fags/booze/drugs/scratch cards/smart phones/satellite TV/bling/junk food/rubbish from pet shops (select as appropriate but probably all) you might be able to afford to pay. So take a hike'.

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Clive Ansell — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 10:50:21 GMT

No, I'm deep in Chav-land having fun at the moment; benefit and low income clients, no money, expensive puppies such as Bulldogs, pugs, French bulldogs, with bling and unable to afford vaccines and wormers etc - If I'm not yet as cynical as you Martin I soon will be.

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 10:39:25 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I seem to have had a run over the last 3 weeks or do of Chavs bringing in there new designer breed puppy that looks "wormy", underweight, pot bellied and generally not thriving.[/quote]And you're not even working for me Clive!

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Clive Ansell — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 09:58:04 GMT

I seem to have had a run over the last 3 weeks or do of Chavs bringing in there new designer breed puppy that looks "wormy", underweight, pot bellied and generally not thriving. Most have apparently been wormed by the breeder, but after a single dose of Milbemax or Drontal large numbers of roundworms are passed.

I always assume they have not been treated and start from scratch, 2 doses 2 weeks apart, or a spot on application of Advocate or Stronghold.

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 09:47:57 GMT

RE: An observation - worming puppies

Richard Carter — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 09:30:07 GMT

we still see enough to recommend the 3 days panacur instead of the once off drontal/ milbemax for the first worming, switching to the others when pup is older/ not passing visible worms. If the owners see worms after the worm treatment, we repeat at 2 week intervals but otherwise recommend monthly until 6 months of age. Incidence - depends on the number of pups we see from the same breeder/ litter/ dodgy import but could be as high as 10-15% with visible worm burden?