altitude sickness in dogs!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 09:39:01 GMT

[quote user="Russell leadsom"]And yes -sea level is best (we live in Hout Bay)![/quote]

Maybe. All fine until global warming causes rising sea levels - you'll be underwater while us altitude bods are high and dry

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Russell leadsom — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 19:16:11 GMT

Thanks to everyone! loads of info to pass on to the clients to reinforce my instinctive `NO do not do it!` Having personally had altitude sickness (Mt Kenya) and carried my heat-stroke Labrador down Table Mt ( I know -only a pathetic 1000m!) - but definitely no again!

And yes -sea level is best (we live in Hout Bay)!

The suggestions of Preds, acetozolamide, and viagra sound good - but knowing the clients, I suspect the latter would be misused, abused and overused (although it might have slowed the ascent!)

Thanks again

Russell

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 18:06:43 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Now I know why I remain closer to sea level! Much safer![/quote]

The benefits of high altitude include fewer horrible creepy crawlies or parasites, no snakes, no malaria at >2500m, usually no mobile phone coverage, no queues, plus the scenery is magnificent. Not easy to convince people always though, certainly if stuck in a tent at 5500M unable to sleep and -35c outside. But, each to their own.

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 17:11:54 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Now I know why I remain closer to sea level! Much safer!

[/quote]Yeah, but its no fun!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 17:04:04 GMT

Now I know why I remain closer to sea level! Much safer!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 17:00:21 GMT

Clive I'm really really glad, and massively relieved to read that. The dreadful lives of so many pack animals is heartbreaking.

The observation on yaks is interesting,but I can't think of an answer

Wynne

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:37:48 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] it is said in Nepal that the Yaks can only live at high altitude and get ill and die if they descend below 3000m. Can't think why or even if it is true? [/quote]Probably because there are no Yetis at lower altitude!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:28:07 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I hope the horse was safe at that level - I really do. It wouldn't be fair to put it at risk to rescue someone who had voluntarily placed themselves at risk.[/quote]

This horse actually seemed very healthy and well looked after and cared for, in contrast to the many mules and donkeys used as pack animals in many of the worlds popular mountain ranges. It belonged to a young female Nepalese yak herder, who took equally good care of her yaks.

As an aside, it is said in Nepal that the Yaks can only live at high altitude and get ill and die if they descend below 3000m. Can't think why or even if it is true? any ideas??

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:20:39 GMT

I hope the horse was safe at that level - I really do. It wouldn't be fair to put it at risk to rescue someone who had voluntarily placed themselves at risk.

I still maintain that risking the dog's life is irresponsible - you can't obtain informed consent

Wynne

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:13:03 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]What I understand, which is surprising, is that often the SPO2 is the same in those who are acclimatised and aren't suffering from altitude sickness as those who aren't and are. It is the way the mitochondria in the cells are able to use the available oxygen in acclimatised individuals, rather than the amount absorbed through the lungs which is the same for everyone.[/quote]

I think it is still poorly understood, and many different physiological adaptions are involved during acclimatisation. One of which is the dumping of HCO3- in urine, thus increasing H+ leading to an acidosis which stimulates breathing. This process is accelerated by the carbonic anhydrase inhibitor Diamox, as well as being aided by drinking load and loads

I have heard of individuals who have always been fine and have acclimatised well to suddenly be affected and unable to at relatively low altitudes. unsure why.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I would say you were already suffering from pulmonary oedema by that point and the Diamox would have been useful.[/quote]

I would say if someone has or is suspected to have pulmonary oedema and has a spO2 in the 60%'s, then it is too late for Diamox and rapid descent is indicated. If I were a leader in that situation I would be calling a helicopter.

I have seen someone with full blown pulmonary oedema, very frightening it is too. Pink froth from mouth and nostrils and severe cyanosis. This was a chap who had previously been to the same altitude of around 4500m without any problems. He was placed in Gamow bag to simulate descent, and was evacuated via horse back and mask O2 to a mountain hospital 1000m lower where he made a full recover. It was reported his spo2 was 26%, which I didn't even think possible.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]One of our party made it to about 3000 metres before having to be carried off and spending the rest of the week in hospital before being airvaced back home. She was already suffering from respiratory disease so attempting the trek was probably not the wisest idea to start with but full marks for having the balls to try.[/quote]

Thin dividing line between having balls and sheer stupidity!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 15:45:33 GMT

[quote user="Kate Dawes"] I realised things were a bit serious when I was woken by the guide with the pulse ox rather than by the usual cup of tea! (SPO2 now in the 60s=straight down)[/quote]What I understand, which is surprising, is that often the SPO2 is the same in those who are acclimatised and aren't suffering from altitude sickness as those who aren't and are. It is the way the mitochondria in the cells are able to use the available oxygen in acclimatised individuals, rather than the amount absorbed through the lungs which is the same for everyone. I would say you were already suffering from pulmonary oedema by that point and the Diamox would have been useful.

One of our party made it to about 3000 metres before having to be carried off and spending the rest of the week in hospital before being airvaced back home. She was already suffering from respiratory disease so attempting the trek was probably not the wisest idea to start with but full marks for having the balls to try.

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 14:16:37 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=458

BMC travel at high altitude booklet

[/quote]

Thanks, downloaded, stored etc etc

Try this

http://www.traveldoctor.co.uk/index.htm

This was recommended to me by 2 consultants I took away this year, loads of information

Key are:

1) sleep the first night at no higher than 3000m

2) Sleep no higher on any night than 300m higher than the previous night

3) after every 3 days of ascending at 300m /day take a rest day from ascending ie no more than 900m of ascent to the overnight stop every 4 days.

The crucial altitude is the altitude at which you sleep each night not the altitude you may temporarily ascend to during each day.

Altitude sickness is serious, people die from it and death is forever.

Neil

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Kate Dawes — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 12:31:16 GMT

As someone who has tried and failed to climb Kili I question the wisdom of taking a dog up.

I had done enough training and was pretty fit, but my body just didn't cope with the altitude at all. We chose a route with an extra acclimatisation day (7 days instead of 5), but by the 2nd day I was getting a headache, by the third my SpO2 (our guides took a pulse ox with them), was in the 70s. I made it to Kibo came at around 4500m but there was no way I was going any further. On the last morning I realised things were a bit serious when I was woken by the guide with the pulse ox rather than by the usual cup of tea! (SPO2 now in the 60s=straight down) I was getting a bit confused by this point as well. I made it down fine, albeit with the guide carrying my gear, but did have a horrible cough for a few days afterwards. My husband's SpO2 stayed in the 90s the whole time and he made it up fine. I didn't take diamox (after considering all the evidence for and against) and do wonder if it might have been a different story if I had.

My concern would be that we recognise the signs of altitude sickness and (most of us) know when to give up, a dog would probably just carry on til it drops and then there is a risk to humans if it needs to be carried/taken down.

I know I'm probably coming at it from a negative view point and the dog would probably be fine, but that's just my thoughts.

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 12:24:58 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]If acclimatising properly from sea level, the ascent of Kilimanjaro should take 10 -12 days if applying the general rule of 300m height gain per day and every 4th day at leisure over and above 3000m. Unfortunately, Kili has become a tourist trap given it is readily accessible and is a relatively easy and non technical ascent. I've seen commercial companies advertising ascents in 5 days, [/quote]We went up in 4 days from the entrance to the park gate having arrived the day before, straight from the UK! It is totally bonkers and it is more a miracle that more don't suffer not a surprise that as many do. That said our local guide had run up and back down in 12 hours which is awesome by any reckoning but of course he was acclimatised.

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Terribly irresponsible and reckless. Ascending a 6000m mountain is a big deal, and one should be properly attired and have a good first aid kit. [/quote]We were all kitted up in the best mountain approach gear money could buy and the porters were in rags and sandals. The trouble is that in good weather, altitude excepted, its a hike in the park but like any mountain it should be respected: it went from summer to winter in one day when we were on it. Our guide said he'd never seen so little snow, 24 hours later he said he'd never seen so much!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 12:09:00 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Possibly my own minor success was down to having been born and lived all my life at c. 6000 ft above sea level - so probably had more Hb in my blood or something.[/quote]

That's cheating. From living and starting at around 2000m, you are partially acclimatised and it is a 4000m ascent, albeit still significant and potentially dangerous.

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 12:05:27 GMT

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=458

BMC travel at high altitude booklet

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

bob lehner — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 12:01:01 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Seriously though, even though Kilimanjaro is just a walk, it is a 6000m mountain and mountain safety should be taken seriously and should never be scoffed at[/quote]

Actually the most exciting and hazardous part of the trip was getting caught up in a pretty serious bush fire on the lower slopes and all having to run for our lives...!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

bob lehner — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 11:58:30 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Despite common belief, superior physical fitness does not prevent altitude sickness. Of course, if you are cardiovascular fit you will cope better[/quote]

Yes about a year after my Kilimanjaro climb one of my classmates died on Mt Kenya - a very strong and fit lad - I suspect he had cardiomyopathy or something, as he just dropped dead. Mt Kenya is slightly lower, but much more of a mountaineering challenge than Kili.

Possibly my own minor success was down to having been born and lived all my life at c. 6000 ft above sea level - so probably had more Hb in my blood or something.

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 11:55:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Bob was a teenager in pre 'elf and safety days

Wynne

[/quote]

I know, just teasing.

Seriously though, even though Kilimanjaro is just a walk, it is a 6000m mountain and mountain safety should be taken seriously and should never be scoffed at.

For info: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/guidance-for-kilimanjaro-trekkers

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 11:39:27 GMT

Bob was a teenager in pre 'elf and safety days

Wynne

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 10:33:53 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"] I was the weediest and least sporty specimen imaginable - but got to the top, whilst a number of the very tough colonial settler kids fell by the wayside.[/quote]

That is an important point. Despite common belief, superior physical fitness does not prevent altitude sickness. Of course, if you are cardiovascular fit you will cope better with the mild affects of altitude. I have seen what one would perceive to be the least likely candidates (clumsy, overweight, unfit) summit out on >5000m mountains, and in fact it is often the gung-ho, alpha male, cock bantam on a bag of bran types that don't make it; they strut on ahead, over exert, don't keep themselves hydrated and don't listen to advice.

[quote user="bob lehner"]No medicines - no proper gear - just jeans, a coat of some sort and some old boots[/quote]

Terribly irresponsible and reckless. Ascending a 6000m mountain is a big deal, and one should be properly attired and have a good first aid kit.

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 09:43:44 GMT

I was once in Guatemala on a volcano trekking trip, and we had a Labrador with us belonging to an American lady that suffered no ill effects at all at just short of 5000M. While us humans were slow and short of breath, and feeling mild effects of altitude, the Lab seemed completely unaffected and was running around as if at sea level. Of course, its appetite was unaffected. Anecdotal and n=1.

I've been to 6000M and above many times, and the secret to success is plenty of time to acclimatise, drink plenty of liquid (no alcohol), and don't over exert - slowly slowly catchee monkey. I routinely take Diamox and dexamethasone with me, but have never needed to take it and usually finish up giving the Diamox away to others. Many seem to take Diamox prophylactically which I think is a mistake as it can mask signs of AMS and wrongly gives the opinion that folk can bypass the process of acclimatisation.

I know from experience that I am a slow acclimatiser, and often lag 24-48 hours behind others, but once acclimatised I'm fine. Where possible I fly to a destination early and spend some time at leisure for 2-3 days at altitude.

If acclimatising properly from sea level, the ascent of Kilimanjaro should take 10 -12 days if applying the general rule of 300m height gain per day and every 4th day at leisure over and above 3000m. Unfortunately, Kili has become a tourist trap given it is readily accessible and is a relatively easy and non technical ascent. I've seen commercial companies advertising ascents in 5 days, so no wonder there are fatalities. If you really must go and do it, do something else while there, such as Mount Kenya, and be fully prepared and acclimatised so will enjoy it all the more.

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 22:44:43 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Viagra?

[/quote]

Trying to make a mountain out of your molehill?

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Russell leadsom — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 19:14:32 GMT

Agree!!

RE: altitude sickness in dogs!

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 17:41:29 GMT

Viagra?

Proper preparation and training. I suspect dogs will cope far better than their owners!