Is homeopathic medication POM?

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Kate Richardson — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:22:55 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="Kate Richardson"] If it was acupuncture, that would be a bit different, but one would hope that anyone performing acupuncture would ask for a vet referral first anyway[/quote]

Isn't acupuncture an act of veterinary surgery though? So they would be doing something wrong if they were a layperson.

[/quote]

What I meant was that a vet being asked to perform acupuncture would want a referral from the primary vet (if not their client already) or one would hope (and in my experience they generally do) that they would request a history if a client was to contact them directly.

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Catriona MacIntyre — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:10:42 GMT

Acupuncture is regarded as an act of veterinary surgery, and is restricted to veterinary surgeons. RVN's are allowed to place needles under the direction of a VS

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:50:42 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"] If it was acupuncture, that would be a bit different, but one would hope that anyone performing acupuncture would ask for a vet referral first anyway[/quote]

Isn't acupuncture an act of veterinary surgery though? So they would be doing something wrong if they were a layperson.

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:33:21 GMT

[quote user="Rob Watkins"]and because it will make Arlo's eyes widen in disbelief LOL[/quote]

My nervous tic has just returned.

Aaah, but those are really weak homeopathic remedies, mostly only diluted 1x100 and then the resultant dilution 1x100, which in homeopathic terms is really very, very weak (though ironically not by Government standards, which would say the reverse!)

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:29:35 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

My favourite of the moment-

"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

[/quote]One of my favourite Peanuts quotes was Charlie Brown shouting at someone (I forget which character): 'You think you're really smart but you're only as smart as I think you are and I don't think you're smart at all'.

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Bob Russell — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:08:09 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

This homeopath is committing a grave criminal offence. It is a crime for anybody todefraud others. It is a crime for a lay person to diagnose or TREAT disease in animals.

They can be got one way or the other. If they claim they're treating then they can be prosecuted under the veterinary surgeon's act. If they deny that charge, then they've admitted tofraud GOTCHA

Add on another prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act, for failing to protect the animal from pain.

Wynne

[/quote]

Homoeopathic vets have their own sets of rules. They diagnose and treat when it suits them but sending out water or sugar pills to a non-client is not treatment, it is supplying water or sugar pills.

There is absolutely no need to diagnose as there is little intention to use any treatment! I dread to think how many memories would be stored incidentally in even the purest of water or purest of sugar tablets. I bet there is a memory of slavery in the tablets if you look hard enough!

Any vet supplying medication to a patient over the internet or phone is pushing their luck but there are websites where a human can have an on-line 'consultation' and POM products supplied.

The homoeopath cannot be caught either way!

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Rob Watkins — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:04:53 GMT

Just to answer the OP's original question... (and because it will make Arlo's eyes widen in disbelief LOL)

They are not POM but 7 of them hold a distribution category of AVM-GSL

You can see for yourself here. (VMD website... just click on the registered homeopathics tab).

For those that are not familiar with the acronym AVM-GSL... it stands for:

Authorised Veterinary Medicine - General Sales List

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:49:46 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

[/quote]

You've got everyone wondering, now.

Well, almost everyone.

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:59:50 GMT

This homeopath is committing a grave criminal offence. It is a crime for anybody todefraud others. It is a crime for a lay person to diagnose or TREAT disease in animals.

They can be got one way or the other. If they claim they're treating then they can be prosecuted under the veterinary surgeon's act. If they deny that charge, then they've admitted tofraud GOTCHA

Add on another prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act, for failing to protect the animal from pain.

Wynne

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:16:03 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Bob Russell"]Client will either go away and rethink or just go away![/quote]Probably the latter. As Albert Einstein said: 'Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe'.[/quote]

My favourite of the moment-

"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.

It is the same when you are stupid."

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:07:29 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

... and shouldn't a person who actively advise against giving painkillers to a dog that neecs them be persecuted?

[/quote]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]... and shouldn't a person who actively advise against giving painkillers to a dog that needs them be persecuted?[/quote]

That's rather an interesting typo

[/quote]

B*!st&^d!!!! You purposely corrected neec but threw me to the wolves with *prosecution!

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:02:31 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]BUT is this person doing anything "wrong"? Someone contacts them and they send out inert water or a sugar pill. Not really making a diagnosis!

Homoeopaths really have so much going for them![/quote]

Hopefully the RCVS would take a dim view of either a lay-person prescribing for an animal or a vet prescribing for an animal not under their care.

You're right on that last point - making up the rules as you go along in a way that suits you must make things much easier when it comes to case management!

Niall

[/quote]

Maybe legally they aren't doing any wrong (as not a POM, thus not seeing the animal is not a crime?) but morally wrong, and denying an animal in pain effective treatment. The owners are potentially in the wrong legally as they are denying freedom from pain for their animal. If it was acupuncture, that would be a bit different, but one would hope that anyone performing acupuncture would ask for a vet referral first anyway.

My homeopathic anecdote is a bitch which had persistent haematuria which ultimately was diagnosed as transitional cell carcinoma involving the urethra predominantly and latterly the bladder wall.

Owner bouncing between myself and homeopathic vet (HV). Usual story of not wanting referral for further investigations and confirmation of suspicion of neoplasia initially, so treated with antibiotics (based on urine culture +) and meloxicam with advice that meloxicam would be anti-inflammatory, provide analgesia and help relieve the discomfort of the cystitis signs, and had potential for anti-neoplastic effects.

HV advised only needed to give the meloxicam if she seemed painful, owner stopped antibiotics of her own accord, unsure if related to advice from HV. Several alternative concoctions.

No contact from HV to me. No request for history. Not even sure if dog was seen.

This owner is actually a really nice girl but has her beliefs, but to give her credit she did listen to my advice and recommendations esp with respect to the meloxicam effects when I reiterated them on discovering that she had stopped treatment.

Just wrong.

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:47:47 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Client will either go away and rethink or just go away![/quote]Probably the latter. As Albert Einstein said: 'Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe'.

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Niall Taylor — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:44:10 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]BUT is this person doing anything "wrong"? Someone contacts them and they send out inert water or a sugar pill. Not really making a diagnosis!

Homoeopaths really have so much going for them![/quote]

Hopefully the RCVS would take a dim view of either a lay-person prescribing for an animal or a vet prescribing for an animal not under their care.

You're right on that last point - making up the rules as you go along in a way that suits you must make things much easier when it comes to case management!

Niall

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Bob Russell — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:30:46 GMT

BUT is this person doing anything "wrong"? Someone contacts them and they send out inert water or a sugar pill. Not really making a diagnosis!

Homoeopaths really have so much going for them!

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Niall Taylor — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:02:41 GMT

[quote user="dachsie_4"]LOL - just got a homeopath supplying on of my clients with meds without having seen dog and this dog REALLY needs pain killers which the owner won't give due to the promise of homeopath magically fixing the dog........ [/quote]

Was this a vet or a layperson? Either way they should be reported to the RCVS, no question.

Niall

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Bob Russell — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:54:46 GMT

[quote user="dachsie_4"]

LOL - just got a homeopath supplying on of my clients with meds without having seen dog and this dog REALLY needs pain killers which the owner won't give due to the promise of homeopath magically fixing the dog........

[/quote]

A good candidate (owner) for a disclaimer advising that advice has been given regarding the need for pain relief and that this has been rejected.

Client will either go away and rethink or just go away!

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:31:55 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]... and shouldn't a person who actively advise against giving painkillers to a dog that needs them be persecuted?[/quote]

That's rather an interesting typo

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:26:39 GMT

[quote user="dachsie_4"]

[/quote]

This is not just unethical, this is plain cruetly now, caused by ignorance. Any chance you can just about to give the site Gillian Mostyn recommended in the other thread to your client so they can make their mind? http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

... and shouldn't a person who actively advise against giving painkillers to a dog that neecs them be persecuted?

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

dachsie_4 — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:17:31 GMT

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:43:15 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="dachsie_4"]is homeopathic medication POM?[/quote]

to get approved it would need to have some efficacy data...

[/quote]

Laughed out loud. Of course there is that minor detail, too!

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:38:12 GMT

[quote user="dachsie_4"]is homeopathic medication POM?[/quote]

to get approved it would need to have some efficacy data...

RE: Is homeopathic medication POM?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:37:09 GMT

Hi Monika

Nope: https://www.bsava.com/Resources/BSAVAMedicinesGuide/Medicinesclassification.aspx