Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:53:30 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]There simply must be a way of collating best practice for these things and maybe vet surgeon could do this.[/quote]

Yes. Lots of stuff going on in the background here at VSHQ. But my hope is to get the site generating additional revenue to fund this kind of thing early in the new year, at which point probably best to have a poll to see which things members most want. But this sounds to me like a really good idea.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:46:18 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Seriously though..this method needs some care...the rabbit urethra is short, and joins pretty high up in the vagina.[/quote]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Why do you need to ligate below the cervix in a bitch or cat? Given that you can just do an ovariectomy. I would have thought you would have more chance of damaging the urethra if you ligate below the cervix.[/quote]

In answer to both of these I suppose it is habit, I've always done it - probably because of the old chestnut about stump pyos and I've never ligated a urethra yet. Secondly I definitely feel that I have a more secure ligature below the cervix.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:16:50 GMT

My wife looked up the other day and said 'Neil as a locum do you think people will want to employ you when you ask basic questions on this forum?'

I ask not because I can't do it but simply because I have clinical contact with lots of practices and am a serial poster on this forum and with this thread and am genuinely interested in finding out the best way to do things. A good example is castrating rabbits where until 6 months ago I was trying different ways but now have settled on incise the scrotum, squeeze the testicle out, castrate closed with 2 sutures (one for safety) and then glue the skin. 5 minutes a side, no post op complications that I have seen. In part thanks to this forum (and the RSPCA)

I ask the same of female rabbits, so can we ligate above the double cervix, it seems no-one really knows. It would save as an experienced vet said to me the other day 'I just put a thick piece of suture material round that mass of tissue and pull it tight'

Martin then throws one in from left field by taking out the cervix in bitches. On the continent and in many practices who do laparoscopic spays the ovaries are all that is needed.

Similar to anaesthesia in rabbits there are so many anaesthetic protocols. I found one using propofol. 'Is it safe?' I asked 'Oh yes' was the reply 'we've only lost 3 this year.' There must be the safest protocol that we could all use (AKA NICE in people)

There simply must be a way of collating best practice for these things and maybe vet surgeon could do this. Could we get a final year elective on board to collate various methods? I'm not talking about the 5 cases of lung torsion seen in referral practice more the daily stuff that we deal with day on day.

Neil

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:47:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Rabbits have 2 cervices, what they don't have is a uterine body, the two horns both have a cervix and attach directly to the vagina.[/quote]Pedantic but OK, one of the most technically demanding parts of a bitch/cat spay is ligating below the cervix which I always do. That is not a concern in a rabbit as I ligate the vagina. Does that make it clearer?

[/quote]

Why do you need to ligate below the cervix in a bitch or cat? Given that you can just do an ovariectomy. I would have thought you would have more chance of damaging the urethra if you ligate below the cervix.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:17:22 GMT

Clear as mud!

Seriously though..this method needs some care...the rabbit urethra is short, and joins pretty high up in the vagina.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:04:53 GMT

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:54:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]There isn't a cervix [/quote]

Eh?

[/quote]Rabbits don't have a true cervix. At least I've not identified one!

[/quote]

Rabbits have 2 cervices, what they don't have is a uterine body, the two horns both have a cervix and attach directly to the vagina.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:55:36 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Neil Wheadon"] I do realise that half the point is uterine carcinomas[/quote]My immediate reaction was this but if the ovaries are gone then this shouldn't be an issue anymore than a pyo is in a bitch.[/quote]

Just had a look on VIN and found a link to a 2008 study in the journal of Veterinary Pathology which looked at immunohistochemical staining of oestrogen and progesterone receptors in rabbit uteri. It found that the adenocarcinomas come in two types - one type (tubular/solid) expressed one or both receptors in 94% of cases; but the other type (papillary) was negative for both receptors in 80% of cases- suggesting 2 different developmental pathways for adenocarcinoma in rabbit uteri. So I wonder if they would get papillary adenocarcinoma even if the ovaries weren't there, which is an argument for full OVH.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:38:45 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]]Rabbits don't have a true cervix.[/quote]

No. They have two!

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:35:14 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]There isn't a cervix [/quote]

Eh?

[/quote]Rabbits don't have a true cervix. At least I've not identified one!

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:31:07 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]There isn't a cervix [/quote]

Eh?

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:17:44 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Try hard not to handle too much soft tissue as prone to adhesions and the cervical end isn't as neat and tidy as a dog.

[/quote]I don't find hysterectomy that much of a challenge in rabbits, getting the ovaries up is the hard bit. There isn't a cervix which IME actually makes it easier. Just remember to ligate the broad ligament blood vessels.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"] I do realise that half the point is uterine carcinomas[/quote]My immediate reaction was this but if the ovaries are gone then this shouldn't be an issue anymore than a pyo is in a bitch.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:00:16 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"] full ovariohysterectomy with partial vaginectomy.[/quote]

How low down do they go?

Where does the urethra join the vagina. I'd be distinctly nervous of taking any of the vagina.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen_diseases/Fem_rabbit/Fem_en.htm

In essence an ovariectomy sounds safer and better

Any thoughts on this?

Neil

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

CatherineThomas — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 22:37:35 GMT

I think the answer is that no one really knows. I've seen discussions between eminent rabbit vets with differing opinions on this. Some say that they will do ovariectomies on young rabbits and others say that they will always do a full ovariohysterectomy with partial vaginectomy.

RE: Rabbit spays - can you ovariectomy

Nicola Cole — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:18:05 GMT

My thought would be no, due to uterine tumours as you say. Although I don't know how hormonally dependent the tumours are? So if spaying at a young age whether just removing ovaries is enough? I'll wait for someone exotic-y to come along and give a proper answer!