MDR1 drugs

RE: MDR1 drugs

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 07 Nov 2015 12:15:07 GMT

[quote user="Tricia Goulden"]

I did look after I posted that Suzanne & I agree with you. I will pass this on to the Sheltie owners.

[/quote]

Let us know if they listen to you....wouldn't hold my breath I'm afraid. Unless the little darlings are hose-piping the walls with haemorrhagic diarrhoea then they might feel more inclined to listen!

But I too have learned from the odd breeder, so i don't dismiss everything out of hand, but i've never forgotten the new owners (several of them!)bringing a 20th generation photocopy of a rompun and pentobarbitone anaesthesia protocol ( in the late 90s) insisting I used it to spay or castrate their pup when the time came....'because this breed is allergic to anything else..'

RE: MDR1 drugs

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 07 Nov 2015 11:50:23 GMT

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]I'm not happy to consider something a scientific fact just because it appears on the local breed club website![/quote]+1 with a vengeance.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Tricia Goulden — Sat, 07 Nov 2015 08:08:54 GMT

I did look after I posted that Suzanne & I agree with you. I will pass this on to the Sheltie owners.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Suzanne Kelly — Sat, 07 Nov 2015 00:54:29 GMT

[quote user="Tricia Goulden"]

I would not use metronidazole on a Sheltie, it is on the MDR1 risk list and Sheltie breeders/owners have a very active forum where this is discussed. There are some very well informed owners out there.

[/quote]

What list though Tricia? It's on every breeder/dog club internet list, but no veterinary ones that I can find. I can't find a single veterinary reference or paper to back it up. Plenty studies on general neurotoxicity in multiple breeds when overdosed, but nothing on MDR1. Whilst I agree some owners and breeders are very well informed and knowledgeable, plenty are not and I'm not happy to consider something a scientific fact just because it appears on the local breed club website!

RE: MDR1 drugs

Anthony Todd — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 20:46:22 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Apparently you can buy special underpants for that.[/quote]

More on order, but slower than usual in arriving; amazon has blocked my account as they say I have returned too many, even though they were only used once, and briefly, and returned well packed.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 19:40:14 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]senile incompetence.[/quote]

Apparently you can buy special underpants for that.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Tricia Goulden — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 19:24:27 GMT

A couple of examples are a CKCS breeder whose knowledge of chiari malformation /syringomyelia in the early days when it first came into the public eye greatly improved my knowledge.. She introduced me to the work of Clare Rusbridge and I continually learn from her. A miniature dachshund owner introduced me to Lafora disease. I was not aware of it until then.

I value anyone who has a passion for anything even misguided breeders. I will always support breeders and try to guide them to make informed choices. You can't make anyone do anything but you can avoid judging people and do your best.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Anthony Todd — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 19:04:31 GMT

As I couldn't find anyone on my estate to find the Delete button, even on the computer, I pressed the only button that seemed relevant myself and reported you.

Hopefully you will end up in jail in Egypt, at least it should be quiet at the moment, as the chavs are all at the airport and with only hand luggage.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 18:02:24 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]why can't I just delete the duplicated post?[/quote]Well someone has! You just click the 'delete' button, its quite simple even for senile old farts Anthony.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Anthony Todd — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 17:30:14 GMT

Sorry duplicated due to senile incompetence.

Geez, Arlo, this is so embarrassing, why can't I just delete the duplicated post?

This is discrimination against the elderly and incompetent! There's got to be a claim in this somewhere......

RE: MDR1 drugs

Anthony Todd — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 17:29:17 GMT

Yeah, but it's worse when an owner says, as you've made a sensible and correct diagnosis, "but the breeder said", as you try to explain bilateral patella luxation in a newly arrived, and immediately much loved, chihuahua puppy, "that it would grow out of it, and it's normal in puppies....."

RE: MDR1 drugs

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 16:39:24 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"] He was the first, but certainly not the only, dog breeder who I have been happy to learn from.[/quote]Assuming we are talking about veterinary matters rather than the finer points of inbred characteristics etc, as far as I can honestly recall the only breeder who knew more than me about the breed (as opposed to thinking they did) is one of my ex nurses who breeds, shows and judges Staffies and Bedlingtons. There may have been a couple where I learned at the same time as them and even less who were prepared to listen when they were incorrect. Life is too short to put up with the bovine dung most of them come out with which is by and large why I have no breeder clients apart from my ex nurse.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Anthony Todd — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 15:50:37 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] So many things are now known by initials as opposed to proper names. [/quote]

It gets better Wynne, this from Wikipedia [you can explain it to us all later....]

P-glycoprotein 1 (permeability glycoprotein, abbreviated as P-gp or Pgp) also known as multidrug resistance protein 1 (MDR1) or ATP-binding cassette sub-family B member 1 (ABCB1) or cluster of differentiation 243 (CD243) is an important protein of the cell membrane that pumps many foreign substances out of cells. More formally, it is an ATP-dependent efflux pump with broad substrate specificity. It exists in animals, fungi and bacteria and likely evolved as a defence mechanism against harmful substances.

I've absolutely no idea WTF they're on about let alone the TLAs.......

RE: MDR1 drugs

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 15:39:10 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Tricia Goulden"]

There are some intelligent owners who are well informed about their breed. We can learn from them.

[/quote]Really!

[/quote]

Perhaps only some of us can.

Very, very early on in my career, I was presented with a dog belonging to a breeder. I saw it as a second opinion from a neighbouring vet because , "He spoke to me like I was a f*****g idiot". The dog wasn't diabetic (as he, and the other vet, thought) but it had an atypical pyometra (3 yo breeding bitch) and while he thoroughly cross-examined me before agreeing to surgery his questions were intelligent, well informed and genuine insofar as he seemed keen to learn more rather than second-guess/clever-dick. Turns out he was a geneticist at the University of Newcastle called Malcolm Willis. He was the first, but certainly not the only, dog breeder who I have been happy to learn from.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Rob Davis — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 14:13:52 GMT

[quote user="Tricia Goulden"]

[/quote]

It doesn't appeat to be on this list. Do you have a link to a more comprehensive list of drugs to avoid?

RE: MDR1 drugs

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 13:58:08 GMT

[quote user="Tricia Goulden"]

There are some intelligent owners who are well informed about their breed. We can learn from them.

[/quote]Really!

RE: MDR1 drugs

Tricia Goulden — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 13:43:04 GMT

There are some intelligent owners who are well informed about their breed. We can learn from them.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 13:19:53 GMT

[quote user="Tricia Goulden"]

[/quote]

There's a difference between 'well informed' and 'I read it on an internet forum so it must be true'. The former will take the information on board and discuss it properly with us.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 09:00:25 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

She refused to use any 'chemicals' - in the end after several long consults and several attempts to get her to agree to one treatment or another i told her she was allowing the animal to suffer because of her own ill-informed prejudices.

No idea how this turned out as she now inflicts herself on a colleague up the road, who will no doubt have enjoyed reading the notes before he met her...!

[/quote]I would have given her a push long before she jumped ship of her own accord.

[quote user="Tricia Goulden"]There are some very well informed owners out there.[/quote]I could think of any number of words to use in place of 'well informed', which in the majority of cases none would be complimentary. A little learning is a dangerous thing as we are all aware.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Tricia Goulden — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 08:01:33 GMT

RE: MDR1 drugs

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:22:50 GMT

If the owner is so worried about the dog's MDR1 status then she should get it tested - but a casual search of the internet will easily provide a fruitcake client with multiple sites that will tell them the drugs you want to use will kill their pet, and that the only reason you want to use it is to make money.

My last client who had these issues was a lawyer, with 2 rough collies, the youngest of which was flea allergic. It was also MDR1 heterozygous ie you need to be careful with some drugs, mainly chemotherapy choices/ doses . She refused to use any 'chemicals' - in the end after several long consults and several attempts to get her to agree to one treatment or another i told her she was allowing the animal to suffer because of her own ill-informed prejudices.

No idea how this turned out as she now inflicts herself on a colleague up the road, who will no doubt have enjoyed reading the notes before he met her...!

RE: MDR1 drugs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 18:27:36 GMT

That's just exactly my point. So many things are now known by initials as opposed to proper names. I feel that the potential for error is increased. Just imagine a conversation in the medical field between an orthopod, and a psychiatrist. One will be discussing osteocondritis dissecans, the other obsessive compulsive disorder. Now imagine a newly qualified intern on an orthopaedic or paediatric rotation remembering that drug X is indicated for OCD and doping some poor child with a psychiatric drug!

Wynne

RE: MDR1 drugs

Christina Smith — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 18:18:41 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

But Ruths - it's not the name of the gene. It's the initials of the name of the gene - which is something completely different.

I'm probably being pedantic, but referring to everything by initials is something that's crept in since I qualified. I don't like it.

Christina Does it stand for (M)ulti (D)rug (R)esistance? If so, thanks.

Wynne

[/quote]I think it is known as the MDR1 gene, not usually by it's full name.

RE: MDR1 drugs

Christina Smith — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 18:15:47 GMT

I don't think metronidazole is on the lists of drugs to avoid but given it's side effects can be neurological it is probably best avoided in these animals. Breeders love catching vets out on these things - adds to the mutual distrust

RE: MDR1 drugs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 18:03:35 GMT

But Ruths - it's not the name of the gene. It's the initials of the name of the gene - which is something completely different.

I'm probably being pedantic, but referring to everything by initials is something that's crept in since I qualified. I don't like it.

Christina Does it stand for (M)ulti (D)rug (R)esistance? If so, thanks.

Wynne