Timings of tacking sutures

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Julie Innes — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:50:58 GMT

At least the new owners of this dog sound halfway sensible. I had one a couple of years ago, where the guy called me saying he had a new puppy and the breeder had told him it needed its eyes tacked! He was wondering if we did that for free as he was on benefits.... I told him to give the dog back to the breeder, straight away! He didn't. He then made at least 3 appointments for it to have its eyes tacked and didn't show up. 12 months later the dog was removed from him by the SSPCA, by which time it had also bitten several people :(

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:14:31 GMT

I didn't either but this client found one...to be honest his website doesn't use the word specialist but i think anyone who sees as many as this chap does has got to be better at dealing with their eyes than me!

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Utlendigur — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:47:43 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]to a Shar Pei specialist in Cheste[/quote]

Didn't know the RCVS had a recognised specialism in Shar Peis

I have actually met one nice Shar Pei, but she probably wasn't a good example of the breed - hardly any wrinkles, fairly open ear canals, only mild entropion...good job the owner got her spayed so she didn't drag down the breed standard

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

David Mills — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:24:37 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]So thicker is better? I was going to go for a 4/0 monocryl or something similar. Will these just not last long enough?[/quote]

IME, yes. I personally wouldn't go below 3/0 (2M) and normally use nylon as it stretches much less.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]so scrotes who want that sort of dog get one, which only enhances it. Of course, these are the people who have no money and can't afford to pay for any treatment,[/quote]

Quite so. And as GOM points out they are expensive dogs, medically, to keep.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]so they get itchier and more painful and more grumpy.[/quote]

Not so sure. I think most of them are naturally aggressive based on my experience. Or at the very least prone to aggression very quickly in any interaction.

There was one that was nice come to think of it. It had had bilateral enucleation which had calmed it down somewhat.

Jury out on whether I prefer Akitas to SPs.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

grumpyoldman — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:56:27 GMT

If they survive the early eye and skin problems ,and do not eat the kids , then middle age brings that horrible sharpei fever septic arthritis syndrome ,or a talent for developing grade 3 mast cells, and will end with 2 TECAs for the intractable ear disease , So insure for life with pet plan and be prepared for lots of sutures .

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Catriona MacIntyre — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:48:26 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]

Anyone know where you can find a proper Heinz 57 ?

[/quote]

Yes, curled up right next to me, but he's not available, sorry!

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Christina Smith — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:41:57 GMT

IMO Shar Peis are not aggressive by nature. They are generally severely compromised by their sight and hearing so live in a world that is twice as bewildering as normal dog. They were bred for fighting not for show or pets. The people that buy them generally do not think of their new pet as a dog and are unlikely to have researched their new purchase adequately. As Martin said the next purchase will be another genetically compromised animal. Anyone know where you can find a proper Heinz 57 ?

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:00:35 GMT

I've known several nice ones, they do tend to make snorty growly snarly type noises which are often interpreted as aggression but relate more to upper respiratory noise though I'd always be careful.

The aggressive ones pretty much relate to being in regular or constant pain and discomfort but yes some are aggressive even as small pups.

Thank God they are diminishing in popularity but there are still idiots out there breeding the poor things.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Anthony Dennison — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:26:00 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Tack but use bigger nylon 2M normally[/quote]

So thicker is better? I was going to go for a 4/0 monocryl or something similar. Will these just not last long enough?

[quote user="David Mills"]Ah shar peis.we see a lot. Never met a nice one. Most biting when 8w old for first vaccine[/quote]

I'm reserving judgement. At uni I dealt with a tetraplegic shar pei that was acting aggressively and going for everyone. Spent some time with it, turned out to be a lovely dog just freaked out by not being able to walk - as soon as it had a ventral slot he was away!

I think Shar Pei's are feircely loyal dogs, which doesn't help with their behaviour - training from a young age is important. Problem is, they have this reputation, so scrotes who want that sort of dog get one, which only enhances it. Of course, these are the people who have no money and can't afford to pay for any treatment, so they get itchier and more painful and more grumpy.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

David Mills — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 00:51:42 GMT

Ah shar peis.we see a lot. Never met a nice one. Most biting when 8w old for first vaccine. Don't envya you.

Tack but use bigger nylon 2M normally. Replace asrequired. Entropion surgery at about 12m

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:54:50 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]Advising/insisting on insurance is one thing, making sure the client hasn't grabbed a £500/condition cheapo policy from the meerkats is quite another. No one will insure one of these for entropion either....so much of your work now revolves around making sure the client understands what is likely to happen, and how much it might cost if they are unlucky![/quote]

Oh yes. I spent a good 15 minute on this subject; told her if she gets a quote she likes to get me to read the small print first! Also told her good insurance cover will come with a hefty premium

[/quote]

I wil also do this for clients who ask - I know we aren't supposed to but....

What surprises me is how many people find a truly crap policy and jump at it! £2K a year, but each condition maximum £500 - for a crossbreed pup, costing £10/ month is not cheap enough for such a shite policy but they are out there! HelpUcover.co.uk or something similar, had 3 pups ome in with this in the lst 2 weeks. /fortunately they got a 4 week petplan policy and a lecture on how to find insurance for pets along with first jabs, and fortunately they were still in their 2 weeks cooling off period so they could cancel. I just hate that response to an insurance query - Oh yes I've sorted it...who with? Oh I can't remember...

In this case not only do you need your client to find the cash for a good insurance policy but you also need to make sure they can afford the ongoing uninsurable issues around those eyes.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:14:51 GMT

Oh yes. I spent a good 15 minute on this subject; told her if she gets a quote she likes to get me to read the small print first! Also told her good insurance cover will come with a hefty premium

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:14:40 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]They will then reinvest in a cockerpoo or something similar , so every cloud has a silver lining .[/quote]Doesn't sound very silver to me, more out of the frying pan into the fire!

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Woah, some seriously negative feelings here![/quote]I think its more being realistic. Possibly borne from experience and the desire to have an enjoyable career rather than making money out of deformed dogs.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:07:02 GMT

I think that would make any future surgery more difficult so I certainly wouldn't cut the lids

these dogs skins seem to grow faster than the rest of the pup. so likely the entropion will get worse, and what usually happens is that the pup presents acutely with severe blepharospasm and needs emergency tacking, buster collar analgesia, lubrication and antibiotic cover ( fucithalmic works well, sorry isathal!)

the pup is growing fast so the tacks start falling out quickly, few will lsst longer thna 3 weeks and by then the dog is twice the size and needs another go...it goes on and on. And the dog will start to hate you quite soon...

worst case scenario is a nightmare but i do see a couple of these that haven't been ruined and they are nice dogs.

Advising/insisting on insurance is one thing, making sure the client hasn't grabbed a £500/condition cheapo policy from the meerkats is quite another. No one will insure one of these for entropion either....so much of your work now revolves around making sure the client understands what is likely to happen, and how much it might cost if they are unlucky!

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Will McMullan — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:59:57 GMT

I would be concerned about distorting the lid even more than the dog's genetics are already going to do! I have only done a couple with tacking sutures and left them in for 6 weeks, but I'd guess they nearly all need surgical correction eventually despite tacking. My thinking behind it was that it would at least alleviate some discomfort until the dog was old enough to have surgery.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:19:55 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I can't see anyway this is going to end anything other than badly. I would tell them there is a nice vet up the road who deals with Shar-pei's, we don't. Goodbye.[/quote]

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Every 3-4 weeks with 6-0 vicryl until 6 months old then it will need one major surgery with possibly a few minor tucks and revisions afterwards . By 12 months old it will have atopy and or demodex and they will be fed up with its behavioural issues after its started to eat the kids , and smell . They will then reinvest in a cockerpoo or something similar , so every cloud has a silver lining .[/quote]

Woah, some seriously negative feelings here!

I spent 40 minutes with the owner yesterday going over everything, talking about risks and how to avoid them etc. Getting the dog used to getting it's ears cleaned from a young age, for example. Yes I realise that there will probably be a few things going on with this dog; why I insisted they get pet insurance. I'm going to try and keep an open mind and not condemn this dog before it's even 3 months old!

The entropion isn't too bad in my opinion, the lids are only slightly rolled in compared to some shar peis I've seen in the past. Could something like a small incision in the middle of the tacking sutures be an idea? Not a wedge, just an incision. The tacking sutures everting the lid would cause it to heal in that position?

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

grumpyoldman — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:21:52 GMT

Every 3-4 weeks with 6-0 vicryl until 6 months old then it will need one major surgery with possibly a few minor tucks and revisions afterwards . By 12 months old it will have atopy and or demodex and they will be fed up with its behavioural issues after its started to eat the kids , and smell . They will then reinvest in a cockerpoo or something similar , so every cloud has a silver lining .

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:58:38 GMT

It will need surgery. Last one of these I had need up driving to a Shar Pei specialist in Chester who does about 10 entropikns a week on puppies. I think he's actually done a pretty fine job too.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:27:32 GMT

I can't see anyway this is going to end anything other than badly. I would tell them there is a nice vet up the road who deals with Shar-pei's, we don't. Goodbye.

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:08:33 GMT

Thanks Will.

How long to the sutures stay in for? Only ever done surgical correction of entropion, no tacking!

RE: Timings of tacking sutures

Will McMullan — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:56:57 GMT

If it has entropion now I would tack them now. The point of tacking them is to try and minimise or even reverse the extent of entropion. It's a quick, low risk procedure, and may make future entropion surgery less complicated.