Why is this rabbit over grooming??

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Sat, 10 Oct 2015 01:06:49 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I've always assumed that if the pain is caused by inflammation, and you give something that is a potent anti-inflammatory, then it will make it less painful.[/quote]

Sure, but the loss of pain is because it is less inflamed or less pruritic. Try steroids on toothache or a migraine next time you have one...

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Fri, 09 Oct 2015 17:52:12 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"](Might be worth looking closer at the hay/straw bedding - I have had a few bald rabbits that appeared to be bothered by mites that were coming in on the hay - and even one case of mites brought in on the food.)[/quote]

I dunno, Gillian, here's a good example of a really smart thought although you don't profess to be an expert in rabbits etc.

Perhaps I shouldn't quote the "emporer's new clothes" or out of the mouths of babes, although I'm sure you are.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Fri, 09 Oct 2015 17:47:03 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]That said Anthony's use of corticosteroids as the universal panacea gets a bit repetitive but hey-ho we can ignore him if we want to.[/quote]

It may not be the universal panacea but, at least, it gives the patient relief in a matter hours which I, and all the dinovets I know and respect, feel is the main object.

Any competent vet used to be able to sort the cause out coincidentally, but with a relieved patient.

A double whammy....

I've been at a meeting when the speaker, in a talk on dermatitis, said she did not treat until she had a diagnosis!

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Fri, 09 Oct 2015 17:40:04 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I would only reach for the 'roids if patches of eosinophilic dermatitis began to appear.[/quote]

Geez, I picked mine up long before that.....[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I think it is accepted that corticosteroids are stress relieving.[/quote]

Wow, I've been a behaviourist all these years and here was I thinking I was just a dinovet....

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]especially food allergiees which almost always have primary lesions around the head and face.[/quote]

Yeah, actually I think you may be right [rare I know] the ones I remember did usually have facial lesions, except this one which i remember mainly 'cos the owners followed my instructions to the letter and we sorted it in the end.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Oct 2015 09:06:18 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] I therefore don't offer advice in threads where people ask specific advice about them. I would be worried that it would detract from the better advice that others could offer.[/quote]Any advice is just that - advice. Even experts/specialists are not the oracle and often that which was once the accepted has been shown subsequently to be incorrect or at least not the only solution. By not offering your opinion because you are scared it might be wrong or have no value you are depriving the world of potential nuggets of wisdom. If you don't have an opinion fine but if you do let the world know, we can always disagree.

Illustrations of this occurred at a CPD meeting I went to this week on neurology by Simon Wheeler. By our own admission we are both old farts and recalled the days when we were taught and performed disc fenestrations as the gold standard for surgical treatment of prolapsed inter-vertebral discs. We are now told that this was all but pointless and laminectomy is the (current) treatment of choice. A young member of the audience then made an observation regarding her method of performing a neurological examination which Simon hadn't considered and which on reflection he said he would now incorporate into his methodology.

The moral of this is that there is more than one way of skinning a cat. The accepted norm should be challenged and everyone, even the least experienced has something to offer.

That said Anthony's use of corticosteroids as the universal panacea gets a bit repetitive but hey-ho we can ignore him if we want to.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 09 Oct 2015 09:05:45 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Mind you I'm still a bit perplexed about the idea that steroids are analgesic......

[/quote]

I've always assumed that if the pain is caused by inflammation, and you give something that is a potent anti-inflammatory, then it will make it less painful.

[/quote]

Exactly. My friend is suffering from gout and she's just told me the two weeks she's been on prednisone recently have been the best weeks in a very long time, as she was pain free for the first time in ages!

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:57:11 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Mind you I'm still a bit perplexed about the idea that steroids are analgesic......

[/quote]

I've always assumed that if the pain is caused by inflammation, and you give something that is a potent anti-inflammatory, then it will make it less painful.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 23:46:00 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] I therefore don't offer advice in threads where people ask specific advice about them. I would be worried that it would detract and from the better advice that others could offer.[/quote]

I agree but it never hurts to ask questions, not dictate answers which is what I think I did.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I would agree with those that have said that if the problem is concerning the owner, who is therefore prepared to pay for diagnostics and treatment, then I would start working up this case to look for the underlying cause. Because there is one....[/quote]

Yes obviously the owner is concerned but the poster, right at the beginning seemed to suggest that as the owner was prepared to spend unlimited money on the diagnosis then all the very expensive tests should be done, like full body X rays and bloods at the first stage which seems to me a bit excessive and very very unlikely to give much useful information.

This is a great example of the sort of stuff that the forum is for; not mentioned previously and I know nothing about rabbits but it sounds quite possible and may not have occurred to the OP.

Mind you I'm still a bit perplexed about the idea that steroids are analgesic......

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 21:28:19 GMT

Martin Atkinson, Former Member et al....

I'm sure you both have a lot of knowledge in your chosen interests/specialities. However, I am also sure you'd admit that the treatment of exotics isn't one of them?

I know b****r all about anything bigger than a great dane. I therefore don't offer advice in threads where people ask specific advice about them. I would be worried that it would detract from the better advice that others could offer.

I would agree with those that have said that if the problem is concerning the owner, who is therefore prepared to pay for diagnostics and treatment, then I would start working up this case to look for the underlying cause. Because there is one....

(Might be worth looking closer at the hay/straw bedding - I have had a few bald rabbits that appeared to be bothered by mites that were coming in on the hay - and even one case of mites brought in on the food.)

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:20:10 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Does it carry any more weight if I say that after over 40 years etc, etc there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that ventral over-grooming is steroid responsive, and in all cases eliminated when the allergen is discovered and removed

[/quote]The fact that if the stressors are removed or controlled they stop over-grooming tends to suggest it doesn't Anthony. I would only reach for the 'roids if patches of eosinophilic dermatitis began to appear.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]So I can't see that it can possibly related to stress, unless it is accepted than steroids are stress relieving.[/quote]I think it is accepted that corticosteroids are stress relieving.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I remember a cat with inguinal/ventral grooming allergic to liver [/quote]Cats with allergic dermatitis nearly always show signs elsewhere, especially food allergies which almost always have primary lesions around the head and face.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:17:51 GMT

Blimey, I'd never thought that at one point I'd agree with Anthony instead of Martin. I have though also had some patients with Flutd who overgroomed their bellies. I guess they qualified more for the pain thing than the allergy.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:07:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]The experts on this field beg to differ.[/quote]I think that after 40 years of mainly cat practice I might begin to believe that my expertise carries some weight here. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that ventral over-grooming is stress related. There may be at times other inter-related factors and /or co-morbitities which predispose or exacerbate this tendency but nothing and no 'expert' will make me change my opinion on that.

[/quote]

Thank goodness this forum is de facto peer reviewed.

So I can't see that it can possibly related to stress, unless it is accepted than steroids are stress relieving.

I remember a cat with inguinal/ventral grooming allergic to liver [took a while, and fortunately dedicated clients]

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 16:49:52 GMT

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 16:38:40 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]anyone finding Demodex gatoi?[/quote]

Only ever seen it once at Penn, short tubby ones [similar to the human nasal chappie and. point scored, as the owner had lesions and the lesions in the cat just gave fur licking.

If fur licking pulling, feather plucking etc can be caused by pain alone why is it that a steroid jab always stops it, if only temporarily [and usually when the allergen is eliminated it goes away for ever]?

I've, and other dinovets have always considered ventral, in fact any fur licking in cats, as allergic and not a sign of pain, unless there is an obvious painful trigger viz, broken claw, bite wound etc.

Is there any demodecosis in cats in the UK?

Would pain always respond to a jab of steroids?

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 16:34:45 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]Most cats do have an underlying disease, only is it very hard to find sometimes[/quote]

anyone finding Demodex gatoi?

[/quote]

Not me , not yet. But maybe with the introduction of Bravest for cats next spring it might be a tool for diagnostic therapy ? ;-)

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Rob Loxley — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 16:15:57 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]Most cats do have an underlying disease, only is it very hard to find sometimes[/quote]

anyone finding Demodex gatoi?

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:48:09 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Well I can answer that one! Even accounting for the possibility of FAD or FLUTD, IMO 99% of the time it is stress grooming and if the cat is not breaking the skin or showing other more destructive traits I think it is an acceptable way of coping with stress, like me biting my nails - so long as I don't bite them until they bleed it is a harmless stress coping strategy. I would discuss other ways to help but often these are ineffective and I'm not going to reach for the chemical cosh too soon

[/quote]

The experts on this field beg to differ. All I've read or heard over the last years on over - grooming in cats is that psychological reasons are rare. Much rarer than previously thought. Most cats do have an underlying disease, only is it very hard to find sometimes. Allergies rank very high but so does pain and endocrinological disorders. Because of that I try to find the reason whenever I'm allowed to and it is actually very surprising how often I find something.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:39:50 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]How much do you know about feather picking in Parrots?[/quote]

It seems that I don't know much, if anything....

I always thought they were psychological.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:35:21 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Grooming is a recognised trait in many species, especially cats. do you ignore the cat that is bald between its back legs and just attribute it to a normal physiological trait? I know I don't [/quote]Well I can answer that one! Even accounting for the possibility of FAD or FLUTD, IMO 99% of the time it is stress grooming and if the cat is not breaking the skin or showing other more destructive traits I think it is an acceptable way of coping with stress, like me biting my nails - so long as I don't bite them until they bleed it is a harmless stress coping strategy. I would discuss other ways to help but often these are ineffective and I'm not going to reach for the chemical cosh too soon.

PS Equally the oven-ready parrot is more than likely stress plucking and yes I did know about the pain, nutrition and virus as possible causes but I'll confess not the calcium.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Mark Rowland — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:50:58 GMT

Anthony

How much do you know about feather picking in Parrots?

Do you know for example that a parrot will pick feathers over a site of pain or inflammation e.g. hepatitis or arthritis?

Did you know ionised calcium and poor nutritional plane is a cause?

Did you know that there are viral conditions that can result in feather picking?

As well as psychological reasons.

I would rather try to assertion the presence or absence of a physiological cause rather than dismiss a case out of hand. That seems to me safer than allowing a condition to progress unchecked until it becomes a serious health issue

Grooming is a recognised trait in many species, especially cats. do you ignore the cat that is bald between its back legs and just attribute it to a normal physiological trait? I know I don't

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:39:06 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]But this is a male neutered rabbit, even if it is the female who is doing it to him she is also neutered. So neither should be pregnant.[/quote]

Sorry, I'm misunderstood as usual.

My point was that fur pulling, in rabbits, is a recognised psychological trait, very rare in dogs and cats, so it is likely that, even in a male, even if neutered, and the female, even if neutered, the fur pulling, like feather plucking in parrots, may be psychological too.

I know nothing about rabbit husbandry but things like a bigger hutch, separation of the two, removing the dog kennel or the barking dog next door or the spin-dryer from under the hutch etc. etc. would be the way I'd go.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 10:49:50 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]It's 16 months old.[/quote]

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 10:39:23 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]I don't understand what you are trying to say here.[/quote]I don't often find myself agreeing with Anthony but as I've said as well, it is more likely there is a behavioural problem here than some complex medical/orthopaedic/dental problem in a 16 week old rabbit. Never say never but I think it would be wise to explore that before embarking on a whole list of expensive and probably unnecessary investigative procedures.

[/quote]

It's 16 months old. You do make very valid points Mark and Catherine, I stand corrected. I'd be grateful for yours and anyone else's ideas re my rabbit question.

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 08:44:39 GMT

RE: Why is this rabbit over grooming??

CatherineThomas — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 04:22:24 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]I think you'd be surprised what some owners will pay for treatment of these animals. I've seen hamsters that have had thousands of pounds spent on their vet bills. I'm not saying you have to do everything but you should at least be giving the owners the options of what can be done rather than assuming they wont pay for it.[/quote]

Wow, I think this is an amazing introduction to the diagnostic pathway in what has got to be an obvious psychological problem for this particular rabbit.

[/quote]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I do not agree that it has got to be an obvious psychological problem, that is only one possibility on the differentials list. I don't like to think that my patients could be in pain and would rather investigate and rule out a painful cause if possible.