Aggressive collie

RE: Aggressive collie

Aine Seavers — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 01:59:34 GMT

Its a big call - CCD ! and not a course most of us would wish this case to have taken.

The comment about unobservant owners is a valid one- we see puppies with worrying behaviour- owner not interested- until they come back not so cute and cuddly a couple of years later with 'sudden' problems- one often surprises them by showing the clinic records dating the problem back some years. B.Collies are always nervous here in the last decade- a woman owner presented her dog to us 2 months ago- it stepped inside the door and suddenl yand quietly lunged and bit my nurse on trouser leg- dog ' out of the blue' will not let anyone near the woman- she is astonished at dog's sudden aggression- yet the `12 week puppy vaccine notes all the concerns that this dog will become a fear-biting resource protecting danger- she did nothing to eases it anxiety re socalisation and medications etc- she was asked to muzzle it after its desexing visit- so she went elsewhere then came back some years later and failed to muzzle it! So this dog could be mentally unwell and may respond to medications,its just very rare to take to age 9 to really show this-unless there was a recent catastrophic event in the family dynamics like divorce or break-in or the dog going blind as whilst blindness per se in dogs rarely causes aggression- it can put the anxious dog over the edge etc.

RE: Aggressive collie

Luca Poddighe — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 17:53:59 GMT

I've read it late and I generally agree with many above in the assumption that seems something medical rather than behavioural. Off course, if they have changed practice it will be difficult for us to get to know more. Very bold the choice of Selgian that is a drug very slow to reach concentration in the bloodstream. I hope still they are right and the dog gets better.

RE: Aggressive collie

Miriam Lodewyks — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:45:03 GMT

I have an interest in canine psychology, and am repeatedly struck by how unobservant "loving" owners can be. I am frequently asked to see dogs who have "suddenly" developed aggression or destructive behaviour, and with some probing questions it nearly always becomes apparent that the animal has actually been suffering escalating emotional anguish for years. As the dog's requests for help are consistently ignored, they keep trying something new... so they "sudden change in behaviour" is often just a different way for the dog to try to explain it's mental anguish to it's beloved (but ignorant) humans. Just my 2-cents...

RE: Aggressive collie

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 21:35:02 GMT

Senile behaviour in a 9 year old collie....wow.

someone's got big, bold opinions...hope there aren't unfortunate consequences.

RE: Aggressive collie

Mair Tyler — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 21:31:01 GMT

Update: I rang the owner to discuss the case further and they've already sought a second opinion from another practice where a family member is a nurse (I think cost of initial consult & bloods at our practice put them off). Apparently they've been told it's probably senile behaviour and been prescribed Selgian. I'm not so sure but looks like I won't hear anything further about the case unfortunately...

RE: Aggressive collie

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 09:02:48 GMT

I've come to this discussion a little late, but I would be suspicious of some sort of seizure. I had a similar case in a 3 year old labradoodle, normally a very well behaved dog, but over about a month he had several episodes where he would become very aggressive, and on one occasion bit his owner badly enough for her to need a lot of stitches in her arm. The episodes were a lot shorter than in your cases, only lasting a few minutes. Clinical examination and routine blood tests were normal. I thought it might be a seizure and referred him to a neurologist, he had a normal MRI scan and was started on Pexion, and 18 months later he has had no further episodes.

In an older dog like yours I would be concerned that if the episodes are a type of seizure that there is something more sinister like a tumour triggering them.

RE: Aggressive collie

Mair Tyler — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:54:40 GMT

I am always very careful in what advice I give to owners of aggressive dogs and would refer to a behavioural specialist rather than try to give advice myself if owners wish to pursue 'treatment' but this case seems more medical rath than purely behavioural in origin and, as Aine says, I feel this dog deserved at least some work-up in case this is something that can be treated. I understand there is one very young child in the house who the dog does not have access to. The aggressive behaviour (snapping) has so far only been directed to the male owner. I'm going to speak to the owners tomorrow and see whether they'd be keen to go for MRI.

RE: Aggressive collie

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 10:26:08 GMT

I had a Collie a few months ago, started becoming aggressive on Monday, behavioural consultation, bloods all clear Tuesday, started fitting, referred to neurologist Thursday, MRI showed brain tumour, progressed to the point it was partially paralysed and euthanased Friday!

RE: Aggressive collie

Aine Seavers — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 09:42:23 GMT

the 9yr old loyal dog deserves some sort of basic work up- had this afternoon a client cancel a euthanasia made 2 weeks ago for on a 3yr old well behaved pet who began acting abnormally since May- odd episodes of seeming disassociated and frightened with aggressive warning signs to other dog- no children but owner felt as a breeder not one to continue to use- I agreed but said would have a full health check for pain etc first and to please check her yard for issues like Brunfelsia etc as starts being an issue from May when dog started odd behaviour- owner insisted had nothing in her yard- but checked and found neighbour's brunfelsia plant dropping down into yard behind the dog runs!!. Since she removed it- no episodes with the dog.... so we have postponed the euthanasia for the moment, Some forms of aggression are signs of other diseases that can be fixed or at least diagnosed so owner can sleep with a clear conscience.

RE: Aggressive collie

Anthony Todd — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 09:27:14 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

How many conditions which could cause these behavioural changes are amenable to treatment?

Niall

[/quote]

Nah, how many treatments can be 100% guaranteed to be effective 100%. Who would take the risk?

No point, IMHO, in clouding the water with any investigation, unless the child is obviously provoking the dog.

[ I have a scar only for this very reason]

RE: Aggressive collie

Niall Taylor — Sun, 27 Sep 2015 21:00:25 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Mair Tyler"]and there is a child in the house.[/quote]

Jeepers, I never thought it was worth the risk. I always always recommended euthanasia before there was a tragedy.

Even with any "effective" treatment the owner and the family are always wary for ever, and this affects the dog's behaviour, as it realises things have changed and I don't think it's fair on the dog.[/quote]

I agree, this sounds like a very dangerous situation for the family and if there are children involved the risks are greater. How many conditions which could cause these behavioural changes are amenable to treatment?

Niall

RE: Aggressive collie

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 18:36:50 GMT

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]

I agree with everything Stephen has suggested re the diagnostics of this case- esp the video! its amazing what you can find from home videos- not least whether this is a pain response with increased menace arc etc. Equally if you can do a simple optic exam and check the optic discs re size etc- sometimes that can help with intracranial lesion detection- plus gentle movement of head to see if horizontal or vertical nystagmus induced- And bloods obviously with attention to what also this dog is being fed. How old are the children- having 2 sets of unpredicatable behaviour events both the 2 and the 4 legged children can be a concern. I might be a bit slower to introduce the phenobarb until more is known esp liver and diet etc if going to go on phenobarb.

[/quote]

Bloods were normal. might get some value from a bile acid stim test but the profile doesn't fit a shunt.

I have to agree i would be very wary about a situation where a child could be injured.

We had a client once who had Mastiffs, one was a really dangerous brute at the surgery and my boss had advised it was euthanased several times - client wouldn't listen till it started following her round the house growling at her...

RE: Aggressive collie

janine redman — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 16:39:06 GMT

My own border collie had a brain tumour , very little in the way of clinical signs except intermittently "not quite right" for a couple of weeks before she developed circling behaviour and classic neurological signs.

RE: Aggressive collie

Anthony Todd — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 10:36:21 GMT

[quote user="Mair Tyler"]and there is a child in the house.[/quote]

Jeepers, I never thought it was worth the risk. I always always recommended euthanasia before there was a tragedy.

Even with any "effective" treatment the owner and the family are always wary for ever, and this affects the dog's behaviour, as it realises things have changed and I don't think it's fair on the dog.

RE: Aggressive collie

Aine Seavers — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 10:15:23 GMT

RE: Aggressive collie

Mair Tyler — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 00:40:49 GMT

Thanks for the speedy reply Stephen!

Not insured and did mention MRI as a possibility but not in great detail as wanted to run the bloods first. Also wanted to make sure there weren't other things I should be ruling out before I spend £2K on imaging!

Did wonder about the possibility of anticonvulsants if they want to go down that route. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being euthanased though as it's a bit scary and unpredicatable -and there is a child in the house.

RE: Aggressive collie

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 00:12:21 GMT

Is there a budget for referral? I don't think you will get beyond educated but speculative guesses without at least an MRI.

I would be suspecting some sort of intra cranial problem, though you would expect most problems to cause signs continuously. The intermittent nature does make me wonder if it isn't some weird seizure activity with a prolonged post ictal period of disorientation that is seen as the behavioural change. Just a thought - and as likely to be caused by a tumour as anything else.

It might be possible for the owner to video the altered behaviour at home in a less stressy environment - I've had a few weird neuro cases over the years where this has been a huge help.

If referral isn't possible then I'd suggest trying an anticonvulsant - it seems the episodes re about 2-3 weeks apart which means a response should be obvious fairly soon.

And of course obvious safety warnings to the clients especially if any children are potentially at risk.....