What is Cure?

RE: What is Cure?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 15:14:43 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Are you having a bad week Anthony? Been playing in the knife drawer again?[/quote]

Pot calling the kettle "black"?

I was referring to male human prostate cancer,but I suppose it was possible for anyone to stick the knife in somewhere to someone.

RE: What is Cure?

Bob Russell — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 16:15:47 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

"Cured" means living long enough to die of something else.

[/quote]So if I'm diagnosed with cancer today and die of a heart attack tomorrow I was cured. Well that's good news!

[/quote]

Not really, it just becomes irrelevant!

RE: What is Cure?

John Dennis — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:55:26 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

"Cured" means living long enough to die of something else.

[/quote]

Isn't that what they say about a lot of human prostate cancers?

Or living long enough to generate large fees whilst usually suffering repeated hospitalisations nasty drugs and procedures?

[/quote]

I certainly have reservations about the prolongation of life with a poor "cure outcome". Continual review is essential alongside the outcome statistics. Should Cure not have the interpretation of complete resolution of a condition? Death is inevitable but why have neoplasia remaining as potentially un cured condition when it has been described by someone as "the most curable condition".

RE: What is Cure?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:44:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Or living long enough to generate large fees whilst usually suffering repeated hospitalisations nasty drugs and procedures?[/quote]

Are you having a bad week Anthony? Been playing in the knife drawer again?

RE: What is Cure?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:06:56 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

"Cured" means living long enough to die of something else.

[/quote]

Isn't that what they say about a lot of human prostate cancers?

Or living long enough to generate large fees whilst usually suffering repeated hospitalisations nasty drugs and procedures?

RE: What is Cure?

John Dennis — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:33:24 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Yes, that caught my eye too. It seemed a bizarre statement. "Cancer" is now more cureable than otitis, ringworm, leptospirosis, periodontal disease.....? And would that be all cancer, or just the treatable varieties? [/quote]

I too recognise the quality of the authors but merely have the reservation that this letter or statement about curable conditions will find its way into the general public domain. Perhaps a caveat should have been applied. I was asked this very question in the philosophy section of a veterinary education course that is why I'm intrigued by others opinions

RE: What is Cure?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:43:35 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

"Cured" means living long enough to die of something else.

[/quote]So if I'm diagnosed with cancer today and die of a heart attack tomorrow I was cured. Well that's good news!

RE: What is Cure?

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:33:16 GMT

"Cured" means living long enough to die of something else.

RE: What is Cure?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:06:36 GMT

Am I utterly useless for failing to have such a phenomenal cure rate for cancer, or absolutely wonderful for actually curing lots and lots of other things?

Wynne

RE: What is Cure?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:55:09 GMT

[quote user="John Dennis"] made the following statement "with the right expertise and facilities, Cancer is the most curable condition seen in cats and dogs". They then proceeded to extoll the virtues of a newly opened premises in Surrey completely neglecting the many other admirable practices throughout the country.[/quote]

Yes, that caught my eye too. It seemed a bizarre statement. "Cancer" is now more cureable than otitis, ringworm, leptospirosis, periodontal disease.....? And would that be all cancer, or just the treatable varieties?

I have great respect for a couple of the co-signatories. I wonder if someone just got a bit carried away.

RE: What is Cure?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:28:16 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Polton"] I a bem very cautious about using the four letter 'c' word.[/quote]So am I, it is too emotive, but few people have enough medical/scientific knowledge to grasp the words tumour even malignant let alone technical words like lymphoma. The interpretation of the word is neoplastic lesions that have spread so I avoid it unless I feel that there is unresectable infiltration or mets but sometimes owners can't grasp the gravity of the situation unless you use the C word.

RE: What is Cure?

John Dennis — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:49:25 GMT

Thank you for the information. The wording seems a more "broad stroke" reference seemingly covering ALL conditions and Cancer remission is hardly classed as cure. Even seven years. Over-optimism may proceed if the general public read such statements in our Professional magazines Considering the source of the letter I suspect they should have been far more circumspect and certainly stated that "other oncology centres are also available"

RE: What is Cure?

Gerry Polton — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:40:31 GMT

In my view we (veterinary and medical) all have a responsibility to deliver clear expectations to our owners/patients. I am very cautious about using the four letter 'c' word. We should take pains to explain the difference between remission and cure. I understand the idea of being in remission for seven years being statistically equivalent and thank you, Martin, because I didn't know this little nugget. However, I won't change my terminology; I try hard not to let my owners believe in cure because it makes them less able to comprehend other potentially undesirable changes that could happen in the future AND it means that when they take a decision to do something radical or dangerous, they do it understanding all of the potential outcomes that could follow.

Gerry

RE: What is Cure?

Bob Russell — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:36:43 GMT

One of the (very good) oncology specialists we work with made a comment when I asked for advice when an animal came out of remission.

'Lymphoma is a terminal disease'.

Very rarely is cancer cured in pets. Possible exception would be some surgical cases.

RE: What is Cure?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:23:22 GMT

In humans cancer is considered 'cured' after 7 years. This is based on the statistical evidence that after this time you are no more likely to have cancer than someone who hadn't previously suffered from it. I think if you've been in remission for that time you're pretty clear but I remain sceptical. Given that the methods available to treat cancer in animals is limited even for Supervets, so in most cases we just aim to achieve reasonable remission, it is somewhat spurious.

It does nothing to improve the rather poor opinion I already have of Knowall Fitzpatrick.