Confused by heifer rung at calving

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:11:27 GMT

Seadna thanks for the update.

Keep the cow threads coming!

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Seadna — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:54:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]How's the heifer?[/quote]

Bright and healthy. My boss spoke to her owner over the weekend because he was concerned that she still hasn't passed the cleanings! The pair look perfectly normal apart from that. Having mulled it over during the weekend I have come to the conclusion that I was far too scalpel-happy and I was just lucky that she happened to be at term. Lesson learned!

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 00:03:46 GMT

Seadna How's the heifer?

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Seadna — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 10:10:44 GMT

Thanks for the replies everyone, sorry for the big essay that follows but I wanted to try to reply to everyone. I haven't revisited the heifer but reports yesterday (day after operation) was that she was looking happy and eating, has minimal interest in the calf and it was only around lunchtime that the red-tinged milk from her udder turned to colostrum. She still hasn't cleaned and I don't think the owners have the stomach to investigate vaginally. I will post any further developments.

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

Any calves that were slow to get up, esp if continentals, got a shot of Vitesel from me. No harm for the dam to get some too. Btw - a fat, BB, heifer, pet.....in calf? Hope you gave them a bollocking about fence security, and a double bollocking if it was intentional.

[/quote]

I gave them Vitesel for the calf yesterday on your suggestion Virginia. Reports at that point were that it has to be helped to it's feet and stands for about 10 minutes before flopping down again so hopefully the Viesel will make some improvement on it, thanks! I have to say that it was a planned pregnancy and the heifer certainly wasn't obese, just fat.. so no bollocking necessary for the farmer! (apart from a gentle reminder about feeding too much)

[quote user="macflea"]especially with heifers calving if i go out and farmers says she is only at a short time , partially open ,if coming head first , i usually sweep them , ie put my hand in run around the cervix , its gets them going , i tell the farmer i will be back in 2 to 3 hours sooner if he rings , some calve themselves , i may have a tight pull with some .,but they are well opened [/quote]

This has not been my experience mcflea, and I envy you your trusting and patient clients! I wouldn't get away with

leaving a farmer standing beside his calving heifer and telling him I would be back in a few hours. They call us out when they feel they are out of options and often it's a case of them starting to panic. If I drove out of the yard they would be on the phone to another practice looking for a 'second opinion' straight away! I usually operate on these cases and happily let the farmer know that it is completely and utterly his fault for disturbing the heifer too early in labour. Doesn't usually happen on that farm again!

[quote user="Iain Richards"] or was it was a torsion[/quote]

Torsion was the first thing I checked for Iain, with a rectal exam. I would have spotted it straight away having opened her up also and I would imagine (although could be wrong) that she would have cleaned almost immediately afterwards, having being relieved of the blockage to the birth canal. Owners insisted there was no chance that the heifer was spooked or interrupted too early in labour either. I did check the calf before leaving the farm and it wasn't in the least bit dozy and apart from coughing up the usual mouthful of phlegm/fluid, it wasn't struggling to catch breath at all. It's a seriously weird situation.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] How slack did she feel vaginally? Were the tailhead ligaments slack...

Not sure I am very happy about oxytocin with a closed cervix[/quote]

She was absolutely slack, as we say here she was 'well sprung' and I could have put both arms into the vagina had I wanted to. The udder had filled out too. If it was commercially available (and if I had thought of it) I wish I had taken blood for a hormone profile. I felt like there was some major hormone imbalance happening and that was the reason behind my trying to supplement the heifer with a few synthetic hormones. On the oxytocin thing, yeah I thought about the closed cervix but honestly the uterus was so slack (I use Planipart all the time and I've never had it work this well) I was genuinely concerned that I needed it to tighten up if she had any chance of passing the cleanings and I assumed there was little damage to be done by contractions once the calf had been removed.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]..found all of them unable to provide sufficient numbers of immunoglobulins ...[/quote]

I will be passing this information on to the powers in my practice immediately, thanks for the info. If I get near the calf again I will do the refractometer. Am I right in saying that the test is only valid in the first week?

[quote user="David Shepherd"]I would also be uncomfortable about giving oxytocin with a closed cervix, and in fact never use it even when using Planipart; there seems to be plenty of endogenous oxytocin sloshing about[/quote]

Very relaxed uterus, no milk let-down, no maternal instinct. I suppose these are all explainable by other factors (planipart, heifer, heifer operation) but I just have this nagging feeling that there was a complete dearth of oxytocin on-board this heifer. I wish I could go back and not give her the Planipart and see if the uterus was still as relaxed! On a side note, I love the stuff. I do a fair few operations in the year and I just love how Planipart makes to stitch up a calf bed. Another thing I have noticed with Planipart as opposed to without it is that I can make a smaller incision in the uterus than would normally be safe and the calf will just stretch it as opposed to tearing it on the pull out. Makes for faster closure!

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:44:14 GMT

[quote user="David Shepherd"]

But the OP did say that the cervix was tightly closed ie no parts of the calf were protruding from the vagina

[/quote]You're right, I misread this line: 'I arrived to find a fat BB pet standing with the tail out', as meaning the calf's tail. Should learn not to shoot from the hip!

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Alan Tevendale — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:08:44 GMT

I must say I'd agree that I'd probably not caeser until I'd felt the cervix open - even just a little. That said if everthing is slackened off then hopefully the calf wouldn't be too premature. Michaels use of steroids would hopefully help with any premature lungs if that was the case.

I'd also happily second Michaels use of Immucol Platinum from Vetsonic. I've been using this as a colostrum replacer for some of my farms for the last few years and honestly believe that there is nothing on the market that comes close. Yes it is expensive but I think well worth it.

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

David Shepherd — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:50:38 GMT

But the OP did say that the cervix was tightly closed ie no parts of the calf were protruding from the vagina

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:45:30 GMT

OK 100% SA vet last calving/caesarian 39 years ago but is it too simplistic to suggest that if parts of the calf were protruding from the vagina that she was calving and if you left it in there only worse things would have happened whether this was premature or not?

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

David Shepherd — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:25:54 GMT

Personal opinion here, based on many years in LA practice and no EBVM. I would be reluctant to Caesar if the cervix is genuinely tightly closed as it seems likely that the calf would not be ready with surfactant on lungs etc. Planipart is wonderful stuff, but probably not necessary on 'elective' caesareans. We used to do around 100 every year for a BB breeder who would call us as soon as he could get a few fingers through the cervix, and the uterus was always as you describe, very relaxed without any Planipart. I would also be uncomfortable about giving oxytocin with a closed cervix, and in fact never use it even when using Planipart; there seems to be plenty of endogenous oxytocin sloshing about.

Heifers often have no interest in calves after caesareans, and often have little or poor colostrum. I'm very interested in Michael's work on the colostrum substitute and will look that brand up. If the calf was genuinely trying to get up, rather than just thrashing about then it was probably Ok at that stage and not premature.

You did your best and made a judgment call. Sounds like you were under some pressure from the owners to 'get on with it' and coming back in a couple of hours wouldn't have been popular. Sometimes we all get it wrong. I hope it all works out OK

Best wishes, David

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 01:56:56 GMT

It's quite late so brief reply from me.

What is done is done. How slack did she feel vaginally? Were the tailhead ligaments slack? A heifer a month from calving you likely couldn't even pass your hand vaginally. My 'gut' feeling is you jumped in with a caeser and she was early first stage labour. Stretching of the cervix and vagina causes oxytocin release and contractions (Fergusson's reflex, IIRC). Clenbuterol is a powerful uterine relaxant (IV) and the reason an epidural doesn't stop abdominal contractions is you usually have vaginal stretch - that you don't in this case. The story works so far.

There is NO evidence that synthetic prostaglandins have any role whatsoever in the expulsion of the foetal membranes BUT given there is a risk this cow was not actually calving I think this is perhaps an occasion I would give them. Not sure I am very happy about oxytocin with a closed cervix, but you can't go back and 'un give it'.

Colostrum - Corke (2012) in Cattle Practice looked at many colostrum products available in the UK (including Volostrum) and found all of them unable to provide sufficient numbers of immunoglobulins for adequate passive transfer when fed according to the manufacturers instructions. The only product I have absolute faith in is Imunocol Platinum by Vetsonic. I may have done a small trial that will be presented at BCVA this autumn as a poster and 13/13 calves fed the product alone all had adequate passive transfer. It's expensive, but something to think about. (disclosure - Vetsonic provided the product for my small study, and I bought a puppy off the rep, I still trust the product and I'm not being paid to say this!).

If the calf is dopey then acidosis and or hypoglycaemia are both common. Do you have access to blood gasses? If a pet calf then they can maybe afford it? If so bleed the calf. If not then 35g of sodium bicarb (from the kitchen cupboard if you must) in 500ml of saline with 50ml glucose 50% can make the world of difference to these calves - run is as fully open IV (16 or even 18G IV, small animal giving set, jugular or even cephalic vein). It's a 10-15 min job. If there is a risk the calf is premature I also give corticosteroids (and usually some Vitesel!) to help the lungs produce surfactant and they do seem to help.

If you go back to see the calf, humour me and get a drop of blood for total solids by refractometer.......

Let us know how you get on.

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Iain Richards — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:58:15 GMT

Too many unknowns here I'm afraid. Was the cervix closed because it was genuinely closed and truly premature, or was it an incomplete dilatation because first stage was interrupted, or was it was a torsion? Planipart can give total relaxation and yes, an epidural will not counter abdominal straining, but a good one will remove the sensation. Agree that heifers ignore calves, continentals are dozy and if it was an interrupted labour, placental separation may have occurred and the calf is now hypoxic (I reach for bicarb before Se). It's perfectly OK giving out PG as long as it is for a named case, but I doubt they'd make any difference.

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

macflea — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:59:57 GMT

sounds like the front legs were in the birth canal and as calf was moving around it was pushing on cervix , this seems to cause heifers as they are usually smaller more discomfort , and they tend to walk around straining , they are checked by and are fully closed up , no discharge, completely sealed ..i think the same happens in pregnant women weeks before birth , head engages canal and presses on cervix , and causes discomfort that what wife tells me about child birth .

epidural good idea to ease senstion

initially i would rectal and see how much movement calf is doing , rectal massage legs back into abdominal cavity and wait and see if see starts pushing , give an hour to see if settles down. fear is calf might be in distress and thats why there is excessive movement .

i would like to see some opening of cervix and discharge or cleanings before i would do a section . i consider them a pain in the ass because where i work hobby farmers have no facilities , you would be talking about haltering her to a gate , and hopefull doesnt kill you as you cut in or swing around and crush you .

especially with heifers calving if i go out and farmers says she is only at a short time , partially open ,if coming head first , i usually sweep them , ie put my hand in run around the cervix , its gets them going , i tell the farmer i will be back in 2 to 3 hours sooner if he rings , some calve themselves , i may have a tight pull with some .,but they are well opened .

if its coming back backwards and partially open definitely section

my experiance with heifer never chance a tight jacking if not well open as guaranteed to tear and die ,i get away with a lot more with cows .

i rarely induce with a proglandin on its own , i like to give a good shot of dex with the estrumate , i find you get a smoother induction and maybe a multivimain shot , depending on diet calcium/magnesium as well , if thay havent dropped calve in 48 hours something wrong .

estrumate/dex it will take a minimum 24 hours to work to open them up for calving . it wont work if calve dead or twisted womb.

continental calves are usually very dopey , especially charlaois , sometimes you cant get them going , they wither away .

c section on heifers , they never take to the calf in my experiance . their colostrum is rubbish they have so little of , and a calf needs at least three litres of good stuff . i seem to have faith in volostrum only that brand , as a replacement colostrum and also supplement with dairy colostrum ideally first milking only .

my experiance a calf that starts failing at 10 to 14 days , with scour and peritonitis is a calf that never got adequate biestings . and will die no matter what you do

i dont believe the c section has anything to do with calf being dopey , i have calved loads of charlaois in my time, natural births and calves can be dopey and never stand . you would come across them occassionally . no bb where i am , farmers say feet are too soft for slats and dont like them .

this is my experiance , learning from my own mishaps

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 22:53:54 GMT

**disclaimer - my knowledge is from only 2 years in mixed practice 13 years ago. Hopefully one of the proper LA vets will be along for better advice

[quote user="Seadna "] is it possible that I pulled out a premature calf?[/quote]

Possibly - though she can't have been far away or it's breathing would have been noticeably rubbish (extrapolating from lambs now really). I suppose being fat, perhaps she was merely trying to prolapse her vagina - though the fact that the calf was steering up into position would have probably made me reach for the scalpel too. I suspect if you'd just given her an epidural and left her, you would have ended up with a dead calf and an unopened heifer anyway...and a much bigger mess to Caesar.

Any calves that were slow to get up, esp if continentals, got a shot of Vitesel from me. No harm for the dam to get some too.

Btw - a fat, BB, heifer, pet.....in calf? Hope you gave them a bollocking about fence security, and a double bollocking if it was intentional.

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Seadna — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 22:10:48 GMT

Nope you are 100pc correct. Practice policy here however is to give it out like sweets from a sweetshop. In my weakness I haven't found myself able to go against the grain. Being a recent graduate isn't any excuse I know but it's the only one I have :/

RE: Confused by heifer rung at calving

Nicola Cole — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 21:51:34 GMT

Small animal vet here so no advice on the heifer but just re giving the farmer estrumate to see if that helps-is that allowed now? I though that was one of a handful of drugs you had to administer yourself? Sorry if wrong.