gecko euthanasia

RE: gecko euthanasia

Bob Russell — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:53:47 GMT

Lambs that were unviable (student days) were whacked, at great velocity against the metal posts in the lambing shed. Everyone knew that another one had gone to meet its maker because of the bell like sound (with the exception of the lamb). Death was instantaneous and therefore humane. Not nice but very effective.

What is humane and what is acceptable are not the same thing all the time. I use iso to induce anaesthesia then euthatal. I would not be happy with the euthatal alone unless I could be sure it would always be intracardiac.

I am only anti Martin's approach because clients trust us to do things in a certain manner. I don't question the humaneness of his technique. Could place them in a bag near a car wheel and drive forwards but that would also be aesthetically unacceptable except in the direst of circumstances!

RE: gecko euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:38:34 GMT

I personally think that 'whacking is too imprecise to be 100% effective first time, but that's just me. I can see that in a lab situation, where lots of animals are to be dispatched by someone appropriately trained, then it could be the most humane method.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]what the eyes don't see the heart doesn't grieve about.[/quote]

I disagree. The owners are unlikely to be happy with this method of euthanasia, so I couldn't, in all conscience, carry it out. If I am not prepared to tell an owner what I have done, and defend it, I wouldn't do it.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:30:09 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]But we're not talking about lab animals, we're talking about pets.[/quote]Ah ha! So lab animals deserve less humane treatment?

The whole thrust of my argument has been the quickest, most humane method of euthanasing a small creature. Even I have said I wouldn't wack something on the head in front of the owner but what the eyes don't see the heart doesn't grieve about.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:58:27 GMT

But we're not talking about lab animals, we're talking about pets.

If the owner wanted their animal to be euthanased by whacking it on the edge of a table, they could do that themselves. Sometimes trauma is the best method (I sometimes use swift decapitation with a scalpel for very tiny beasties) but I do winder if you'd be happy to discuss your method, and defend it, with the owner?

RE: gecko euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:13:07 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"] skillful application of a technique does tend to require practice. So what about those poor animals that are practiced on? [/quote]How much skill do you need to wack something that small on the head? Its pretty simple. I agree its not best for something the size of a lamb. Perhaps the days when we wacked frogs and mice on the head for anatomy/physiology lessons had gone by the time you went to school/college - it was standard procedure. Infinitely preferable to seeing them struggle for breath in a jar with a chloroform soaked cotton swab.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Linda Filshie — Sun, 13 Sep 2015 19:18:28 GMT

[quote user="Simo"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

If the owner is not present wack its head on the edge of the table.

[/quote]

I feel the need to support Martin's claim of various specialists advocating for it (I remember at lest a couple of In Practice articles that described it as one of the most effective ways to deal with small vertebrates euthanasia). Personally I wouldn't do it, because I don't feel I would have the practical skill and the guts to do it effectively, but I wouldn't crucify a colleague that knows how to do it properly and uses the skill.

[/quote]

hmm, skillful application of a technique does tend to require practice. So what about those poor animals that are practiced on?

I'll never forget the plaintive screech of a lamb coming crawling out of the sack it had been put in. The poor thing had theoretically been euthanised by just such a technique on the farm where I was doing lambing before I applied to university. (For sake of clarity this was done by the shepherd, not me.)

RE: gecko euthanasia

Kate Richardson — Sun, 13 Sep 2015 13:50:45 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]What I do with furries and wildlife is I apply penthotal rectally (or in the cloaca) with a piece of dripline connected to the syringe. Works lovely, no ;pain, no agony, just dropping off asleep. No violence involved. No choking and fear in the isobox. I euthanised my own old dog the same way at home.[/quote]

That is a top tip! Thanks Mariette

RE: gecko euthanasia

Simo — Sun, 13 Sep 2015 13:47:51 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

If the owner is not present wack its head on the edge of the table.

[/quote]

RE: gecko euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 17:18:34 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] there is no reason why the wack on the head or skilful dislocation of C1/2 should not be used. It is instant and virtually stress-free. All that stops us doing it is anthropomorphism and squeamishness.[/quote]

Perhaps you should only speak for yourself Martin, because my reasons for not whacking an animal on the edge of a table are really not the ones you quote.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 10:01:27 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

Out of interest though:

Guinea Pigs?

Chinchillas?

Rabbits?

[/quote]No I will give pentobarb by whatever route is most applicable.

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Where do you switch ?[/quote]Size and anatomy.

To be truthful I would use intra-coeliac pentobarb in most species including rats and geckos. I was playing devil's advocate a bit but in principle there is no reason why the wack on the head or skilful dislocation of C1/2 should not be used. It is instant and virtually stress-free. All that stops us doing it is anthropomorphism and squeamishness.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 09:04:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If the owner is not present wack its head on the edge of the table. If they are then intracoeliac pentobarb and hope to hit liver or heart, then when its comatose pith it it or freeze it. A gecko ice lolly is pretty convincingly dead.[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Only anthropomorphism makes some people squeamish about it.[/quote]

I write as someone who, as a very young man in a foreign country the other side of the world, was passed a puppy, a sack and a hammer by a sheep farmer (my boss) and ordered to get on with it. I refused and the boss relented. But it was only a stay of execution. Weeks later, the boss passed me a gun instead. Even with a gun, I found it a very, well, traumatic experience, and one that remains (forgive cliche, but true) etched in my memory to this day.

It wasn't anthropomorphism that made the experience so awful; I wasn't attributing human characteristics to the animal. I think you're quite wrong on that front, Martin.

I suppose it was that a) without 'humanising it', I had formed a bond with the dog (I'd been training and looking after it for some time by then) and b) I think for most people there is something, I dunno, very fundamentally uncomfortable about killing things, which gets progressively worse the higher up the food chain you go, but varies from person to person (partly by how hardened they've become). So some can't bring themselves to swat a fly, where others are fine hitting a puppy on the head with a hammer.

Clearly in this country we are culturally more sensitive to these things than a sheep farmer in the Australian outback. I think I was hardened by my experience, and I'm probably less squeamish than most (though I would still run a bloody mile if someone passed me a puppy and a hammer).

Nevertheless, I empathise with those who wouldn't harm a fly. A gecko is altogether different to a fly. It's likely an animal that someone has likewise formed a bond with, and I can well understand how it's not just the owner who shouldn't be present while you whack it on the table. I dare say that most nurses and probably the majority of vets would be (at best) uncomfortable with the sight.

I'm not saying it's wrong to discuss. Interesting that it's recommended on a BSAVA course, but I do question whether it is culturally appropriate for modern day practice in the UK.

Either way, your talk of 'whacking on table', 'ghecko lollies' and dismissing people's discomfort as 'only anthropomorphism' seem heavy on bravado (I bet even you are not entirely comfortable whacking an animal on the edge of a table) and light on empathy for those who (utterly understandably) would find something fundamentally distasteful about that approach.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Joyce Whitehead — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:50:10 GMT

How long do you find it takes Mariette for them to drift off/die. And what volumes?

Very interesting method...

RE: gecko euthanasia

Mark Rowland — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:46:56 GMT

Interesting. Do you let them take the bodies home? If so what do you do about potential leakage and human contact with pentobarbitone?

You may say that it doesn't happen but I'm not sure you would be covered here?

RE: gecko euthanasia

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:26:04 GMT

What I do with furries and wildlife is I apply penthotal rectally (or in the cloaca) with a piece of dripline connected to the syringe. Works lovely, no ;pain, no agony, just dropping off asleep. No violence involved. No choking and fear in the isobox. I euthanised my own old dog the same way at home.

I believe that intrathoracal or intra-abdominal pentothal is painful. But i don't see any reaction on the rectal application. Don't know about gecko's but would be inclined to do the same.

Mariette

RE: gecko euthanasia

Mark Rowland — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:09:15 GMT

Out of interest though:

Guinea Pigs?

Chinchillas?

Rabbits?

Where do you switch ?

Surely a captive bolt must be fine for your dogs, sort of "no country for old vets?"

RE: gecko euthanasia

Mark Rowland — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 20:59:46 GMT

hahaha your nurses must LOVE you.

Do your clients know?

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this

RE: gecko euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 18:05:20 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Haha I suppose you have a hammer for the rats as well eh Martin, come on its much quicker :-)[/quote]No hammer, grab tail wack head on table edge, same method. Why does this sound so barbaric to you? It's instant and humane. And before you ask. Yes I wring bird's necks up to pigeon size anyway.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Mark Rowland — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:34:14 GMT

Haha I suppose you have a hammer for the rats as well eh Martin, come on its much quicker :-)

RE: gecko euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:31:02 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]You have clearly never done it before Martin so I will just disregard[/quote]I have and that is why I prefer a quicker method.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Mark Rowland — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:28:43 GMT

You have clearly never done it before Martin so I will just disregard :-)

RE: gecko euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:27:12 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]put in a small zip lock bag, fill with iso, remove et tube from bag and seal it. wait 15 mins, [/quote]So watching it gasp for breath and writhe in your bag for several minutes is more humane than instant unconciousness/ death from concussion/ cranial dislocation?! Hmmmm.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:23:57 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Get that tin hat on Martin![/quote]I'm quite disappointed no one has red starred me - yet!

Actually I went to a BSAVA wildlife/exotic CPD meeting last week and the wack on the head/dislocation of C1 was recommended as a perfectly valid method - quick and effective. Only anthropomorphism makes some people squeamish about it.

RE: gecko euthanasia

Mark Rowland — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:22:14 GMT

put in a small zip lock bag, fill with iso, remove et tube from bag and seal it. wait 15 mins, it will be anaesthetised, extend head dorsally, orange needle, parallel and close to sternum go in at thoracic inlet at midline and you will hit the heart. confirm with doppler, pith if you like to be sure.

100mg/kg of ketamine I'm will also kill most (all) debilitated reptiles.

goodluck

RE: gecko euthanasia

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:13:24 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]f the owner is not present wack its head on the edge of the table.[/quote]

Get that tin hat on Martin!

RE: gecko euthanasia

Mark Rowland — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:13:18 GMT

I hope you refer all your exotics Martin