Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 12:29:39 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I'd like to see British guidelines that are relevant to this country, the diseases and the vaccines.[/quote]

I did hear the other day that updated WSAVA guidelines are due out soon, in which lepto apparently will be advised as a core vaccine in the UK. (This is of course, not only anecdote, but gossip and speculation!)

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 14:43:44 GMT

[quote user="Catriona MacIntyre"]No vaccine will ever be 100% but almost every veterinary vaccine we use has better efficacy than that![/quote]True but the pharma companies are using ELISA testing when they know it gives an inaccurate result whereas if they used serum neutralisation tests the fail rate would be even higher.

If people want to play ostrich on this then feel free but my personal experience tells me that a 12 week finish is essential and a 16 week vaccine an exceedingly good idea especially in Rotties. I don't need WSAVA or Uncle Tom Cobbly to tell me this.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Catriona MacIntyre — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 23:10:41 GMT

Efficacy of BCG vaccine for humans.... 80% or less depending on circumstances, strain etc.

No vaccine will ever be 100% but almost every veterinary vaccine we use has better efficacy than that! There are risks and benefits to every protocol. Our practice is (currently) a fairly low parvo risk location, few rotties or other black & tans. Others may be different and choose a different protocol

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Anthony Todd — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:24:06 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]That's the entire crux of this thread![/quote]

This thread has a number of cruxes but protection via an adequate imparted immunity is right at the bottom, if even a crux at all.

If we accept that. legally, ie legal liability, is conferred via the product datasheet and not by GOBSATs or even the WSAVA then science and sense are sacrificed to the God of commercial competition and is often based on *hit science and chicanery.

[I hope the spectre of "over vaccination" has died a scientific death]

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:07:12 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] and it gives me an opportunity to check how the puppies are doing. [/quote]

Although you would of course be doing that anyway – wouldn't you?

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 17:41:06 GMT

I do have an image in my mind of WSAVA experts being transported to some sunny spot in the world, drinking steadily through the day as they procrastinate about the relative merits of vaccination protocols.

By late evening probably coming to the well lubricated conclusion that most will be fine anyway so lets decide vaccinosis exists!

We have to base our recommendations on something. A 10 week finish is probably fine for the vast majority so overall should do. 12 weeks finish is probably better and an 18 week vaccine overkill for most. We charge very little for the 16-18 week parvo and it gives me an opportunity to check how the puppies are doing.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 17:03:35 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] Micheal Every preventable death is unforgivable.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you here. A great number of deaths in people and animals are 'preventable' by one means or another. We can't just chose the science that suits our hunches. If there was good evidence that a proportion of dogs needed a later parvo jab then we will do it. To suggest injecting 10's of thousands of dogs to possibly save one is a little far fetched. We don't even know if the pup would have been protected if it has additional vaccines. That's the entire crux of this thread!

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

David Mills — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 16:54:07 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]This thread contains NO evidence based anything an is a collection of opinion. [/quote]

Quite. I'm very suspicious of any 'guidelines'. If you read some of the rubbish produced in human medicine which is essentially a collection of eminence based medical opinions, you'll see why. Someone did a study on it once looking at the basis for the recommendations - mostly opinion, and any external evidence was out of date or unrepresentative. As said, very few (if any) of these guidelines writers are seeing cases with any frequency.

There's a saying for them - GOBSAT (Good Old Boys Sat Around a Table).

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 16:07:27 GMT

Micheal Every preventable death is unforgivable.

Wynne

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 14:15:47 GMT

WSAVA specifically state that the live components should not be given any more frequently than every third year.

(Either the font and size have changed or my eyes are going funny!)

Edit - only when posting!!

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

ChrisBVSc — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:14:10 GMT

[quote user="Paul Stevens"]

You might do one thousand vaccinations and only one puppy dies, but do you not feel responsible in any way? Feel, perhaps, that you shoulda / coulda done more?

[/quote]

No, because I can only do what I can do, and if I've done everything correctly i.e. used the products I have available according to the instructions, then there is nothing to feel guilty about. I would certainly be in touch with the vaccine developer to provide them with information that may improve efficacy in the future (whether this is the vaccine itself or any usage schedules), but feeling personal guilt in a situation like that is not good for anyone.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 09:52:33 GMT

I'd like to see British guidelines that are relevant to this country, the diseases and the vaccines.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Adult vaccination internals..............!![/quote]

Everything, every year.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 09:48:05 GMT

I vaccinate my dogs three times as puppies. Far more expert opinions (WSAVA) suggest this is the protocol to use especially in high risk areas.

I would be reluctant to take liberties with data sheet recommendations but happily supplement the protocols to bring them up to WSAVA levels. Not every puppy is going to be protected but at least if one were to succumb I would be able to say 'vaccines (vaccination) fail sometimes' with a clear conscience!

In time the WSAVA recommendations may fall in line with data sheet recommendations but until that time I will happily recommend my patients receive the same level of vaccination as my dogs have!

Adult vaccination internals..............!!

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 09:39:11 GMT

[quote user="Paul Stevens"]This thread - packed with opinion and some EBVM - is, perhaps, not trying to resolve vaccination protocols in pups so much evidencing the responsibility vets feel when a puppy contracts parvo.
You might do one thousand vaccinations and only one puppy dies, but do you not feel responsible in any way? Feel, perhaps, that you shoulda / coulda done more?[/quote]

Paul - I've given you a red star because I believe you are monumentally wrong.

This thread contains NO evidence based anything an is a collection of opinion. I would love to see the people who've seen disease in vaccinated dogs qualify that with an estimate of the number of dogs they have vaccinated. A vaccinated dog in the practice with parvo is likely to be known to everyone - so how many vaccines does the clinic give. We could try and put numbers on this, but I'm sure we are talking tiny fractions of 1%.

Our job as vets is to educate the clients. We cannot change the science. Some animals in a population fail to respond to vaccine. Those animals may fail to respond to vaccine if we keep injecting them every 2 months for the rest of their life. Do you have evidence that additional injections in the primary course increase the level of protection - or are you going by gut feeling? I have no faith in vaccine titres as I'm unaware of any involving an actual challenge study to find a suitable protective titre. I had chickenpox as a child, I am likely immune, but my circulating antibodies may be undetectable - my immune system has memory.

And don't try and get all soppy on me - it doesn't work. Sometimes vaccines fail in animals. Sometimes they fail in people. Vaccinated people die every year from the disease they are supposedly protected against. Educate them - don't scaremonger, don't sell extra vaccines we don't know if they need, don't rely on not scientifically validated serology.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Paul Stevens — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 09:03:06 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]How much time, effort and money is it 'worth' investing in these animals? How many will fail to seroconvert at 8/10 weeks but would be fine at 9/12? We don't know. As I said (pages ago) we use the Eurican vaccines with 3-5 weeks between doses and a finish no sooner than 12 weeks. Many thousands of doses and no observed disease.[/quote]

Here's a thought.
When we, as vets, vaccinate a puppy, we begin the process of health co-responsibility. We are creating a mutually accountable relationship with that animal and its owner.

This thread - packed with opinion and some EBVM - is, perhaps, not trying to resolve vaccination protocols in pups so much evidencing the responsibility vets feel when a puppy contracts parvo.
You might do one thousand vaccinations and only one puppy dies, but do you not feel responsible in any way? Feel, perhaps, that you shoulda / coulda done more?
The puppy is dead and along with it all the hopes and aspirations of its owner. The owners are knocking on your door.
"Vaccines fail sometimes" you say empathically.
Shrugging.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 20:09:29 GMT

What sort of efficacy do we expect from a vaccine? In human medicine anywhere between 80-95% is considered successful (depending on the vaccine). There will always be animals that fail to respond to a vaccine for many reasons.

How much time, effort and money is it 'worth' investing in these animals? How many will fail to seroconvert at 8/10 weeks but would be fine at 9/12? We don't know. As I said (pages ago) we use the Eurican vaccines with 3-5 weeks between doses and a finish no sooner than 12 weeks. Many thousands of doses and no observed disease.

Branden says he's seen 6 dogs with parvo after vaccination - how many dogs has he (or the practice) vaccinated in that time period? If we have 1 dog in 10,000 gets parvo after vaccination then is it really a failure of the vaccine and of the vaccination schedules? How many would we see without pet vaccination?

As far as I am concerned the vacicnes generally work very well. My puppy had 2 vaccines at 9 and 12 weeks of age. I felt absolutely no need to give an additional booster t 16 weeks - and I could have done. I also lack faith in the WSAVA recommendations as they don't consider lepto 'core' and yet we see more lepto than any of the other diseases you can vaccinate dogs for! Never seen lepto in a properly vaccinated dog. Have seen it in dogs lapsed a number of years.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Anthony Todd — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 17:30:53 GMT

[quote user="ChrisBVSc"]some kind of decent evidence to back it up? [/quote]

Trouble is the datasheet is the law, in effect, no matter how dodgy and wrong it may be!

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 17:29:27 GMT

[quote user="ChrisBVSc"]This is interesting, I've worked in 3 practices so far in different areas in my 8 years since qualifying, & none of them have had a 3rd vacc policy. Never even heard it mentioned. The protocol has always been to follow the datasheet (so we give 2nd vacc around 10 weeks). Then again I've never worked in an area where parvo is prevalent - we only see it occasionally.[/quote]When I first brought this to the attention of the profession in articles and letters in Vet Times I had contact from practices all over the UK and one in Australia who had found the same as me but thinking they were unique said nothing. Seek and ye shall find.

[quote user="ChrisBVSc"]I know EBVM isn't everyone's cup of tea but surely going off license with a 3rd vacc for every puppy, or every puppy of a particular breed, ought to have some kind of decent evidence to back it up? Just my observation..[/quote]We're not saying every puppy but something that could be close to 20% fail rate according to my source is enough in my book. And I'm sure if you search the literature or talk to Hal Thompson you'll find evidence. When I have time I'll dig out what I found.

However, unless you're going to blood test every vaccinated dog then recommending a 12 weeks finish and a 16 week booster is a reasonable protocol I'd say.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

ChrisBVSc — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:24:56 GMT

This is interesting, I've worked in 3 practices so far in different areas in my 8 years since qualifying, & none of them have had a 3rd vacc policy. Never even heard it mentioned. The protocol has always been to follow the datasheet (so we give 2nd vacc around 10 weeks). Then again I've never worked in an area where parvo is prevalent - we only see it occasionally.

Seems to be a topic involving quite a lot of personal opinion, I know EBVM isn't everyone's cup of tea but surely going off license with a 3rd vacc for every puppy, or every puppy of a particular breed, ought to have some kind of decent evidence to back it up? Just my observation..

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Anthony Todd — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 11:37:04 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]need to get them out socialising and habituating before 16 weeks of age, after that you risk behavioural problems.[/quote]

I wonder if there is any EBVM for that statement or is it just that new owners want to get the puppy out ASAP [like a new car] and also start training etc.?

I'd say, and this is pure opinion, there's a real good case for getting the pup thoroughly sorted in the home environment before you expose it to the Staffies in the park, traffic, idiots on bikes etc. so a contrary view could be just as gospelised....

And I'd love to hear anyone refute your confidential communication re age of parvo immunity.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:58:43 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Why not do the first at 12 weeks and one at 16-20 weeks.[/quote]Because you need to get them out socialising and habituating before 16 weeks of age, after that you risk behavioural problems. The vaccine company that sells a vaccine which says they can finish at 10 weeks and therefore have a longer period of socialisation and habituation has a commercial advantage.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]How many pups, of any breed, are sero-low under 12 weeks these days?[/quote]Depends what you mean by 'these days'. When I looked in to this an insider from a vaccine company said this to me in confidence so company deleted:

"For 4 years I looked after small animal vaccines at ......... For that time we campaigned against the tide for a 10 week finish. The alleged behavioural benefits are spurious and we know from numerous reports that no vaccine is as effective at 10 weeks as it will be as 12 in a natural population, especially if maternal antibodies are high as they will be in urban areas or due to recent vaccination.

This is in no way limited to Rottweilers. I believe that other puppies are dying unecessarily because of 2nd vaccines being given at 10 weeks regardless of brand. Vaccines are manufactured only to >80-90% efficacy and while any vaccine can fail this is being used as a catch-all for many cases of failure.

I suspect you may be shocked if you blood tested a variety of puppies which completed their vaccines at 10 weeks of age. This is a very personal issue for me but one which I am unable to pursue due to potential conflicts of interest, however I am concerned that commercial pressure is over-riding best practice."

Hal Thompson added that this is not confined to parvovirus but affects other diseases as well.

This was admittedly 9 years ago but I little confidence the situation has changed since.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:32:29 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] Anthony - if you'd been employed ina university, and had written up all the cases you've seen in your professional career, then your conclusions would be EBVM

Wynne[/quote]

I know the wink is there, but even written up, it's poorer quality evidence.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:56:25 GMT

We finish at 16-18 weeks (Parvo only). I know of a problem with under vaccinating but never 'over' vaccinating.

I advise people that this is the WSAVA recommendation and that most will be protected long before the final parvo.

I also warn them that a very few will never respond.

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:29:07 GMT

Anthony - if you'd been employed ina university, and had written up all the cases you've seen in your professional career, then your conclusions would be EBVM

Wynne

RE: Parvo Vaccination and Rottweilers

Braden Collins — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 01:08:43 GMT

I've now see 6 dogs develop parvo aftee a 10 week vaccine finish. Only one of those was a rotti. We definitely recommend a 16 week dose for all dogs, as do wsava guidelines.