Video Vet Service!

RE: Video Vet Service!

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:50:37 GMT

Bad Labradors in my experience are some of the worst dogs to deal with. Good ones some of the best!

TV trainers, behaviourists, vets cooks and bottle washers are seen only in the light of what makes good television. The disasters are only shown if they want to show them.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:31:04 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]Doesn't work all the time so what is plan no.2 or no.3[/quote]

Trouble is if it "doesn't work" you risk a small child's having a chunk taken out of his or her face.

Not a risk I was ever prepared to take. One bite and they're out [unless there was an obvious justifiable reason

Dodgy dogs are always dodgy and always should be regarded as such before, not after, we get to "option 2".

My worst bite was from "Darkie" a fantastic heading dog in NZ that flew at me, aged about 10 when it was eating and I went up to it and said "Grrrrr".... Er, not really the dog's fault..... chunk out of my thigh.

Not a dodgy dog at all.

My second worst bite was while practising from a 20lb Labish cross no warning, no nothing, and I can show you the scar on my forearm.

Probably bit someone else and was PTS, and justifiably IMHO!

Lion tamers can control lions but what does that prove?

RE: Video Vet Service!

Richard Carter — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:07:31 GMT

yes - but he has the books, the tv shows and the client's attention so find some positives to find some middle ground - and using well behaved but very dominant dogs in his 'pack' does work on reducing the confrontation/aggression from the problem newcomer as it takes its cue from the obvious and undisputed leader.

Doesn't work all the time so what is plan no.2 or no.3 - this is where you normally are now involved, sometimes to undo the previous dog whisper damage, but unfortunately as so often seen in this profession, to peddle the latest fad whether it be medication, calming sprays (some seem to work, some don't), training as recommended by x,y or z or throw up your hands and send to referral.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:47:47 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"].... Cesar Millan's approach....[/quote]Having seen Cesar Millan ostensibly showing someone how to deal with a dog that was guarding its feeding bowl in the video someone posted on here a while ago, and some of the claptrap he comes out with on the telly show like dog whispering, I don't think his methods are ones to recommended, in fact the exact opposite.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 13:16:54 GMT

Richard

Yes

Wynne

RE: Video Vet Service!

Richard Carter — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:10:38 GMT

is this the one that you use as your tin hat when posting on this forum??

Re the training bits - so much of what is being taught out there is guess work and even the 'science' being peddled as the current fashion has huge holes in it - some works, some doesn't, some dogs like children will respond to light reprimand/ obvious displease on the part of the owner for unwanted behaviour, some will get a kick out of the 'new' attention. The better trainers will have a number of alternate training methods and we have all seen the owners where the best for everyone is to re-home the dog as the owners are never going to get it until someone gets seriously hurt.

At our puppy parties it is all treat/ reward based and it produces amazing results as you have the group learning effect but then so does the Barbara Woodhouse approach on an individual basis when the dogs are older and they can start to understand the concept of 'rules' and Cesar Millan's approach where he has in his pack in the background a few really big dogs that subtly tell the troublesome newcomer just what the rules are without any actual fighting needed reduces Cesar's need for any confrontation and he can work with a confidence that inspires the troubled dog to give him attention.

And then tomorrow someone will come up with another theory that will make good TV and sell a few books and will rubbish the previous lessons - which basically come down to - do you feel comfortable with your dog and does your dog feel comfortable with you?

And as for tele-medicine - may need this work to give me a pension!!

RE: Video Vet Service!

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:01:52 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I'm starving hungry. I was going to cook pasta last night - but the collander had disappeared, so I had to go to bed supperless (sob sob) Can anybody give me a clue wher, oh where is my missing collander?[/quote]

Now that, surely, gets the VetSurgeon Most Obscure Tangent 2015 Award.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 10:25:01 GMT

I'm starving hungry. I was going to cook pasta last night - but the collander had disappeared, so I had to go to bed supperless (sob sob) Can anybody give me a clue wher, oh where is my missing collander?

Wynne

RE: Video Vet Service!

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:50:17 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I actually think kids these days are a lot more unruly now that there are no real punishments available to parents or schools. Kids run riot and it's frowned upon to give them a smack. Speak to older people and kids behaved in school or they got a whack. Never did any of them any harm.[/quote]

Speaking as one who was caned at school, I rather tend to agree. It was a lesson I only needed once!

More recently, I had reason to ask the head teacher at my daughter's last school what the penalty was for bad behaviour (not my daughter's, you understand, she's an angel ). She looked at me like I'd just asked her to explain Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. I was dumbfounded.

Anyway, roll on the updated 'Tangent Thread' Feature, hopefully coming next week!

RE: Video Vet Service!

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:36:43 GMT

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]But there are methods that do not have a potential behavioural fall out so why use dominance/traditional methods?[/quote]

Because they work, to my mind, better.

[quote user="Anne Seawright"] I can look out quite a number of studies for you that demonstrate the presence of more problem behaviours in dogs trained using traditional/ 'dominance' based methods than those trained using positive reinforcement methods only.[/quote]

A couple of links would be good - blinded controlled comparisons. Not just observational stuff.

I actually think kids these days are a lot more unruly now that there are no real punishments available to parents or schools. Kids run riot and it's frowned upon to give them a smack. Speak to older people and kids behaved in school or they got a whack. Never did any of them any harm.

Dogs understand simple reprimands, if that is smacking the puppies nose when it growls over the toy or dragging the dog to where it should be sitting it is fine by me (I'm not advocating beating dogs or children half to death here), Negative reinforcement and dominance work. I don't know how many working dogs you deal with, but they are a pleasure (compared to most pet dogs).

RE: Video Vet Service!

Anne Seawright — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:14:44 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]I have just now read the report from them. I am afraid whilst at least they are suggesting more strongly that you seek the help of a qualified behaviourist, they again are basing what they have written on out of date information. The differential diagnosis given is that your dog is trying to assert dominance over your disabled child. I could go on for quite some time and bore everyone including myself about dominance in dogs as a theory, but the short version is that this form of dominance, between owner and dog, with the dog trying to be ‘top’ has been debunked as a theory in clinical behaviour quite some time ago (for information see http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/ ).[/quote]

This is not directed at Anna particularly, but generally at behaviourists. They give us a lot of dogma about what is right and what is wrong in various situations. The 'debunking' of dominance and treatment of noise phobias are two classic examples. There are papers, but they are seemingly mainly opinion based observation studies. I looked and I couldn't find a paper comparing dominance and more modern training methods - done as a decent, controlled blinded study.

What I do know is the majority of the shooting dogs (including my own) are trained using traditional dominance based techniques, and they are by far the best natured and behaved dogs we see in the practice. Just because Anna (and others) don't subscribe to the school of thought, doesn't make her automatically right. It's like in psychology where there are many ways to the same ends.

Go on Anna - you'll be telling me that ACP isn't an anxiolytic next - they got that past the VMD and onto the datasheet.....

[/quote]

I'm not that sure it will be on the datasheet much longer..... and yes, I agree, much more quality research needs to be carried out in clinical behaviour (and vet med generally). With regards to traditionally trained animals compared to non-traditionally trained, I can look out quite a number of studies for you that demonstrate the presence of more problem behaviours in dogs trained using traditional/ 'dominance' based methods than those trained using positive reinforcement methods only. Of course, in an individual dog situation the reality is that it will depend on the personality of the individual dogs, their socialisation and previous learning experiences and the 'degree' of dominance/traditional training methods used to train the dogs (for example are we just talking about being consistent with the dog by always saying not on beds/sofas/walk through doors first, or are we using positive punishment?). But there are methods that do not have a potential behavioural fall out so why use dominance/traditional methods?

Anne

RE: Video Vet Service!

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:01:22 GMT

Go on Anna - you'll be telling me that ACP isn't an anxiolytic next - they got that past the VMD and onto the datasheet.....

RE: Video Vet Service!

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:41:38 GMT

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]I have just now read the report from them. [/quote]

Hi Anne,

Just replied under your comment beneath the news story, but will say again here ...

Thank you so much for the time, effort and thought you've put into this. I think safe to say that I am now persuaded of the need to call in a behaviourist. If you could recommend one in this area, that would be great.

[quote user="Anne Seawright"]I agree with you that at least PawSquad seem to be taking this consultation as a (unfortunately very public) lesson and are looking to improve the service they will be providing.[/quote]

I feel a bit bad about the public nature of the lesson. Angie, if you read this, I really didn't mean to land you in it! Then again, perhaps it was lucky it was me, and a valuable learning exercise for the fledgling company.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Anne Seawright — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:26:40 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I think this is quite interesting. One of the things I have thought about is whether I've relayed my own interpretation of the advice I was given during the consultation, and that as a result, Angie is being unfairly criticised.

Normally, a summary of the consultation is emailed immediately. But I was the first, and for some technical reason which I understand was fixed, mine wasn't.

The report is nevertheless stored on the account, and I have referred back to it.

I think best if I share it in its entirety, because it removes my own subjective thoughts:

Condition

Four year old female dog. Been growling at disabled child since they've had the pet. No biting but owner concerned and wanting to know what can be done..

Other information received

No other medical conditions given. Breed: 'jackapoo'. Once bitten owner's other daughter during play due to excitement.

Summary of potential causes (Differential Diagnosis)

Likely behavioural problem- sensing disability and trying to assert dominance.

Advice given

Consult behavioural specialist therapist to come into home and assess situation- most likely best option but can be costly- advise owner to call own vets for local specialist. *Positive reinforcement with dominant family member present at all times together with daughter. Reason: so dog associates these positive activities with daughter. Activity examples: grooming, feeding, sitting on the couch together and when not growling rewarding with small treat, positive stroking, encouraging words etc. Use negative reinforcement only if needed: spray bottle and or loud noise to deter dog from negative behaviour. Note: Have warned owner that due duration of behaviour, this will be a difficult problem to break and may take a long time.

Outcome: NoAction

I think it is fair to say that during the consultation itself, I didn't feel that the need to see a behavioural specialist came through as strongly as it does in the subsequent report, or as strongly as it is being recommended here. There are a number of possible reasons for that, including:

a) Perhaps the way I described the case during the consultation meant that the vet didn't think it was critically important to see a behaviourist, and there were things we could do ourselves.

b) Perhaps the way the consultation went, the advice to see a behaviourist (which she certainly said), got lost or diluted by the discussion we had about positive reinforcement strategies.

c) Perhaps I subsequently changed the emphasis and read into it what I wanted to read into it! In other words, if I am honest, I am probably a bit sceptical of the general idea of using a behaviourist (not all, but I've always thought there are a lot of amateurs out there).

Actually, I think there is a bit of a), b) and c) above involved! Probably b) more than the others. Certainly if the discussion had not involved strategies we could use ourselves, and had instead just been "GO AND SEE A BEHAVIOURIST - this is why, and here is a good one", there would have been no opportunity for c). Indeed perhaps there is a lesson here for Pawsquad (let's not forget this is a new service and I was the first consult).

Whatever, clearly the advice to consult a behaviourist comes through much more strongly in the report than I have related.

[/quote]

I have just now read the report from them. I am afraid whilst at least they are suggesting more strongly that you seek the help of a qualified behaviourist, they again are basing what they have written on out of date information. The differential diagnosis given is that your dog is trying to assert dominance over your disabled child. I could go on for quite some time and bore everyone including myself about dominance in dogs as a theory, but the short version is that this form of dominance, between owner and dog, with the dog trying to be ‘top’ has been debunked as a theory in clinical behaviour quite some time ago (for information see http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/ ). Also suggesting a list of activities for your daughter to do with the dog, such as grooming, without an assessment of your dog’s behaviour in different contexts, or any explanation of how to tell if your dog is comfortable with this or is over threshold, also has the potential to make the situation worse. An assessment of your dog’s behaviour in different contexts, a thorough explanation of dog body language and a physical demonstration of desensitisation techniques is required.

You are right that unfortunately there are a lot of amateurs out there, and if I am being completely honest (and I will borrow Wynne’s tin hat to say this next bit), there are also a lot of vets and nurses, with very little training in behaviour, who will also give out inappropriate or outdated behaviour advice. However, there are ways to ensure you are seeing a qualified, up to date behaviourist, for example looking for a certified clinical animal behaviourist (CCAB) or someone who is accredited with the association of pet behaviour counsellors (APBC). I am very happy to supply you with a list of some very reputable people in your area, of which I know quite a number.

I personally suspect the emphasis of the report is different from your recollection of the consultation due to their in house discussion of the advice given at their subsequent meeting. I agree with you that at least PawSquad seem to be taking this consultation as a (unfortunately very public) lesson and are looking to improve the service they will be providing.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Catriona MacIntyre — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:14:05 GMT

Further thoughts.... presumably, if we have to see someone who has already consulted a video vet, we are duty bound to contact that vet and obtain clinical records before proceeding, unless in an emergency situation?

RE: Video Vet Service!

Bob Russell — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:07:34 GMT

Don't be skeptical about seeing a good behaviourist. We were lucky to have Anne McBride and her colleagues from Southampton University on our doorstep. Sadly the service has gone but not the behaviourists!

Most go to the home, view the situation and discuss the issues, risks and explain how these can be tackled. They provide a full written report for owners and veterinary practice.

They rarely have multiple revisits so the cost is not excessive (unlike quite a number of glorified dog trainers!). Much of the battle is figuring out what is going on in the dog''s brain (and the humans around them). Then explaining it to the owners before providing a regimen to encourage appropriate interactions!

Not convinced about the spraying water bit!

RE: Video Vet Service!

Bob Russell — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:57:11 GMT

Some confusion over 'breed' as well! Is it a 'Jackapoo' or a Cockerpoo? Very different aggression profiles IMO.

Sorry, sounds to me as if the vet was being nice to you and covering backside on paper. Not much use if a child is injured.

Generally my advice is for clients to choose a practice where the vet can get to know the owners and family as well as the pet.

Out of hours advice is really simple. Stop contact between pet and child overnight and speak to the usual practice next day!

I stand by my comments that much of the time this is likely to be £15 wasted. Very few conditions can be reliably diagnosed without an element of hands on.

Insured pet owners often have a phone number to call to speak to an RVN free of charge.

At best this service (in the words of the great Douglas Adams) is "Mostly Harmless".

RE: Video Vet Service!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:50:36 GMT

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the written advice - maybe it's not such a bad idea after all, but still at the moment n=1 I'm glad they're re-inforcing the necessity to see someone "on the ground" not replacing hands on consultations

Wynne

RE: Video Vet Service!

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 08:33:14 GMT

Normally, a summary of the consultation is emailed immediately. But I was the first, and for some technical reason which I understand was fixed, mine wasn't.

The report is nevertheless stored on the account, and I have referred back to it.

I think best if I share it in its entirety, because it removes my own subjective thoughts:

Condition

Four year old female dog. Been growling at disabled child since they've had the pet. No biting but owner concerned and wanting to know what can be done..

Other information received

No other medical conditions given. Breed: 'jackapoo'. Once bitten owner's other daughter during play due to excitement.

Summary of potential causes (Differential Diagnosis)

Likely behavioural problem- sensing disability and trying to assert dominance.

Advice given

Outcome: NoAction

a) Perhaps the way I described the case during the consultation meant that the vet didn't think it was critically important to see a behaviourist, and there were things we could do ourselves.

b) Perhaps the way the consultation went, the advice to see a behaviourist (which she certainly said), got lost or diluted by the discussion we had about positive reinforcement strategies.

Whatever, clearly the advice to consult a behaviourist comes through much more strongly in the report than I have related.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:20:46 GMT

I'm always amazed quite how surprised a lot of owners are when I answer the OOH phone myself.

RE: Video Vet Service!

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:19:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Bob Russell"]Most are perfectly amiable[/quote]You must have a different line of Cockers round your way then Bob. I wouldn't trust one nearer than snapping distance.[/quote]

We have a cocker spaniel - she is the sweetest dog I have ever known. Collie dogs, they are nippy bastards (and we have a lot of them on the books).

RE: Video Vet Service!

Virginia Campbell — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:04:55 GMT

Arlo, I don't normally slag off other vets' advice but I really don't think you should follow this behaviour advice. I'm not a behaviourist, but the only time I would use a water spray is to dissuade a stray cat from the garden. I don't think spraying an already slightly narked, slightly heightened arousal dog is going to persuade it to live in peace and harmony with your child. I'm also worried by the expectation she plants that "it may take some time", encouraging you to keep on going with this and potentially escalating the situation further/ constantly reinforcing the pissed-off-ness in the dog's mind till you concede the point that, as she tacks on at the end, "you may need a behaviourist". You don't "maybe" need a behaviourist, you need a behaviourist. If you pulled our your iphone in the last couple of seconds of a vaccine consult with me to show me video of the behaviour, I'd sit you back down, explain how to administer "behavioural first aid" - which does not involve water sprays or the child interacting with the dog at feeding time- to keep everyone safe while you await your referral consult with a proper APBC behaviourist, or at the very least a very good trainer with experience of special needs children and dog relationships, with the person actually coming to your house to observe the family in situ. Please please do this. In my experience, contrary to popular belief, they won't insist that you need dozens of expensive sessions for the next five years or anything. Just a couple of sessions with someone really good can get you safely on the right track. I'm not "refer everything" vet but behaviour is one area where I.m very keen that my clients get referred sooner rather than later, and almost always sooner than the owners think necessary. It's not as expensive as you might think and the clients who are so glad they did it outnumber those who think it was a waste of time and money by dozens to one. I have seen several dogs brought into households where there is a special needs child in the hope that they will have a special bond etc then it all goes sour over time and the dog gets rehomed. Admittedly often because the child's condition means that they will always be too rough with / scared of the dog, and I guess that is not your situation, but sometimes just because the extra professional support wasn't there. If I were you I'd start by contacting an assistance dogs' group..I k know yours is a pet not an assistance dog but their trainers will know about the problems of getting dogs used to unusual human behaviours and, even if they're all dedicated assistance dog trainers who aren't allowed to moonlight, they will likely know the APBC behaviourist in your area who has the most experience in the field. Anyway it's late, I have to work tomorrow and I'm sorry this has turned into a massive tangent ramble when it wasn't the point of the thread, but I really think it's important. Look, you'd think anal glands or something worth mentioning at a vaccine consult...from the dog's welfare point of view, and for the long term future of dog and family, this is MUCH more important.

RE: Video Vet Service!

sam haig (Aldridge) — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 19:58:03 GMT

Another one genuinely concerned about the advice. Spraying wafter is definitely not a positive training method- it's an aversive. Using it around a child may make the issue worse as the connection of child = bad thing is formed. Growling is a good thing- without it they jump straight to bite. The growl is your dog communicating with you that it feels uncomfortable or stressed with the situation. It's a warning. Take that away and you have a much more dangerous situation. Doggone safe is a good resource for this. Every dog has the prospect to bite and inflict damage on a child. Your dog is trying very hard to communicate with you. Spraying it in the face will not help it feel better with a situation !

RE: Video Vet Service!

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 19:03:08 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] I certainly don't expect one to be available when I ring.[/quote]

Well, I would.

[/quote]So would I otherwise I'm concerned what I'm paying my OOH provider for!

RE: Video Vet Service!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:53:24 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] I certainly don't expect one to be available when I ring.[/quote]

Well, I would.