Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

skatealexia — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:21:11 GMT

The nobivac L4 tends to sting in all the puppies I've injected at their first vaccines. Otherwise, touch wood no problems. There have been reported swellings though.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:11:02 GMT

But when does a common reaction become an adverse reaction? The data sheets say: a transient swelling up to 5cm may commonly be observed.......in rare cases GI signs and decreased activity are possible. Do you report what is expected to happen?

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Rob Loxley — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 18:13:23 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]I simply can't recall the last reaction with Nobivac[/quote]

Agreed

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Did you report it?[/quote]One out of a box of 25 - no. I'm pretty sure there is provision in the data sheets to give a let-out clause for that[/quote]

But if we don't report all SARs then how can we expect the VMD and pharmaceutical company perform post marketing authorisation surveillance?

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 12:34:47 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Did you report it?[/quote]One out of a box of 25 - no. I'm pretty sure there is provision in the data sheets to give a let-out clause for that. There will always be individual reactions to vaccine. I do also wonder if it is in part to do with the immune system just adapting to the new strains.

Considering I've been banging on about the out of date CPV 2a strain in vaccines for the past 10 years, now someone has finally changed to 2b I'm not going to stop using it, it would be hypocritical.

Incidentally who is going to change to the new Meriel cat vaccine now it has an upgraded FCV component?

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:58:50 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]

Are people using versican getting lumps at vaccine site ( suggested big problem by rep of another vaccine company) and does the nobivac l4 sting? Trying to decide where to go with vaccine . Currently using vanguard

[/quote]

Yes, had a small number of swellings at the injection site. Not sure if this is going to be a one off for the animal or regular. Not seen any repeats when the second L4 has been given.

Reps from competitors are bound to latch on to this sort of problem. Part of their job description.

I can see no reason not to continue with Versican but as with everything, it will be reviewed regularly.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:49:51 GMT

We have been making owners very aware of the possible adverse reactions because we have started to use Versican. Also handing out a copy of a leaflet supplied by Zoetis.

We have one dog (Yorkie) that we will no longer vaccinate because it has shown reactions soon after vaccinations (minutes). We have tried Duramune and Nobivac and the reaction has been the same!

None of the Versican reactions have been any more severe than we 'expect' in puppies. I have put the perceived increased numbers down to higher vigilance and client education, perhaps also because we are protecting against new strains.

None have come to harm and none have shown adverse reactions that are not in the data sheet.

I understand that lepto is to be considered a core vaccine and L4 to be recommended when WSAVA update their guidelines.

No pain reaction to the L4 component!

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:01:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I've just got through my first box of Versican plus and only one report of a reaction - adult dog off colour for a couple of days[/quote]

See comment 2 posts above. I had 2 and they were off colour for a day, (short term locum) and in adult dogs not puppies. I simply can't recall the last reaction with Nobivac. Did you report it?

Neil

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 10:31:13 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]Are people using versican getting lumps at vaccine site ( suggested big problem by rep of another vaccine company) [/quote]Well they would say that wouldn't they! I've just got through my first box of Versican plus and only one report of a reaction - adult dog off colour for a couple of days, but no lumps. The stinging is too much of an individual reaction to assess as this stage given half squeak at the needle anyway.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 21:58:17 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]

[/quote]

I'm currently using the Nobivac range. I do get the impression it's rather the rabies component that stings. I'm seeing less lumps than I did with the Virbac vaccine but the stuff seems to sting more when injected.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 21:12:13 GMT

I've used both

Nobivac L4 certainly stings in puppies. They yelp about 10 seconds after you inject in many cases. Adult dogs seem unaffected

Versican. I had 2 dogs within the same morning consult report sleepiness and going off food for about 12 hours. In both cases i reported to the VMD. Co-incidence?

Neil

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

karen jones — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:55:47 GMT

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

ruths — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 09:41:18 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

There's an urban tale/myth/truism that some shelters here in London have used Tamiflu with success in parvo pups with good success. Anyone else tried? (We haven't). There was some grumbling a couple of years about how it should be reserved for people but with H5N1 consigned to the biggest pharmaceutical marketing trick in history bin, there's plenty about rapidly going out of date...

[/quote]

yes, I've heard that too

But if I'm correct, the action of tamiflu is against an enzyme that doesn't exist in parvovirus so it shouldn't be effective.

however, I'm sure I read somewhere that the enzyme is present in the bacteria that are secondary invaders in cases of parvo so it may be effective here.

no evidence that it works, though

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

grumpyoldman — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 07:10:04 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I haven't (touches wood) seen any cases of CPV for ages, I suspect that is due to luck rather than anything.[/quote]

I suspect its more about geography , and local socio-ecanomics. We have some grim local authority sponsored focuses for infection , low average annual incomes, large council estates , and a lot of pikeys selling hybrids with 1st vaccines sold over the counter from Eire.

Some people really do not have the brains they were born with , they will approach a sickly puppy in the waiting room pre consult ,pick it up, pet it, handle it etc ,then go back to their own also unvaccinated pet. We had a 16 week old in for 5 days last week. It recovered ,they paid picked it up ,and on their way out announced they were off to pets at home for their vaccines and a puppy party !!!. They wanted to take it there when it was ill ,but they did not do overnight stays!. Possibly another focus for repeat infections ?.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:50:26 GMT

Agree with Martin

Wynne

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:00:02 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]I also tend to find antivirals of little if any value in survival times, but may possibly help in terms of faster recovery times in those that recover ? but that is just an impression. [/quote]I haven't (touches wood) seen any cases of CPV for ages, I suspect that is due to luck rather than anything. However when we were still seeing then regularly I found Virbagen Omega definitely decreased recovery time to 3-4 days from an average of 7 and increased survival rate to pretty well 100%. Bloody expensive yes, but in the end cheaper than several more days hospitalisation.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

David Mills — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 18:49:31 GMT

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

grumpyoldman — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 18:21:52 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Another selling point of Versican is that the Parvo component is based on CPV 2b serotype. This something that is a long time overdue but being as some evidence shows that 2c is now a common strain and that a large percentage of dogs are now being back infected by FPV[/quote]

We still see a lot of Parvo, certainly on a monthly basis, sometimes weekly ,but they are always recently sold puppies 8w with or without a first vaccination of some kind given at 6w , which has clearly not provided any immunity , they are often weedy with intercurrent giardia , campylobacter , toxocara , isospora etc . Some die some recover some are euthanised when the new owners hit the buffers on cost. There is also an occassional none vaccinated adult with HGE that tests positive and recovers well after 4-5 days . Some of these have been vaccinated homeopathically through the post.Which drives me insane.

Nothing seems to get it after a first two vaccinations and a first annual booster , some that do not get the first annual booster can still appear as clinical HGE and get better over 4-5 days ,we have also had these with breeders who donot vaccinate after the first course. But are now boosting at a 3 year interval.

I cannot honestly say I retain much interest after the idexx test goes positive , its a nursing monitoring and mopping up job then, the ones we see do not seem to fall into 3 forms clinically, they are all pretty nasty, I also tend to find antivirals of little if any value in survival times, but may possibly help in terms of faster recovery times in those that recover ? but that is just an impression.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:42:03 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

I thought that Grypotyposa ? (not sure if that is the right spelling ) and Australis ,the two new Ls had not been found in mainland uk? Implicated in disease in Europe ? some seropositives from Eire ,in Sick dogs of unknown aetiology that could have had cross reactivity with L2 tires of 1/10 not being very significant ??

[/quote]

Wasn't there an outbreak of Leptospirosis Australis serovar Bratislava in Somerset earlier this year?

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:09:04 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]I thought that Grypotyposa ? (not sure if that is the right spelling ) and Australis ,the two new Ls had not been found in mainland uk?[/quote]That is exactly my understanding. Another selling point of Versican is that the Parvo component is based on CPV 2b serotype. This something that is a long time overdue but being as some evidence shows that 2c is now a common strain and that a large percentage of dogs are now being back infected by FPV, is it just more marketing hype? The manufacturers will tell you that based on HI testing there is cross protection even from CPV2a strain but serum neutralising antibody tests tend to show there isn't. And is anybody doing challenge testing? I remain very sceptical about the efficacy of CPV vaccines.

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Sometimes you just wonder if vaccine companies are possibly over-zealous in their underestimation of the robustness of the canine immune system and slightly over protective of their annual turnover.[/quote]Only sometimes?!

To be fair it makes economic sense for manufacturers to have a pan-European product so I don't have an issue with adopting the L4 vaccine but that doesn't stop me questioning its efficacy.

I still feel that by promoting a 9-10 week finish they are putting commercial interests before best practice as we are aware that a significant number of pups will not be capable of developing an immune response at that age.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

grumpyoldman — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:25:23 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]3rd/4th strains and it had only had a bivalent lepto vaccine. [/quote]

It all reminds me of the Cat Bordatella vaccine that leapt onto the market a few years ago ,and rotted up to its sell by date in everyones fridge . Sometimes you just wonder if vaccine companies are possibly over-zealous in their underestimation of the robustness of the canine immune system and slightly over protective of their annual turnover. We keep looking for lepto , serology ,biopsies and PCR ,but never find any in our area , The other thing to come out a recent paper was that if you do think its a problem you probably should be vaccinating them every 3-6 months .

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Bob Russell — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 17:36:43 GMT

We have changed to Versican Plus but do not plan to use the very early finish. We will continue with a 12 week finish or 16+ week final parvo. Also plan to give a full booster at a year. Surprising that an insurance company would refuse a claim for a case of non-L2 strain. Sounds like a certain insurance company that shall remain nameless (E&L seem to be behaving better so not them!).

Not sure you can ever have too much protection.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:11:52 GMT

My assistant was recalling an experience of someone who apparently had their insurance claim refused because the dog had leptospirosis caused by one of the exotic i.e. 3rd/4th strains and it had only had a bivalent lepto vaccine.

This is a bit anecdotal but I would think that was unreasonable given that the majority of vets still don't use an L4 vaccine and its only been available for a couple of years anyway. I would doubt that they could make that refusal stick if challenged.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:13:48 GMT

+3, We use the Eurican range of vaccines with a 12 week earliest finish.

It is a good way to make the rep squirm when they start peddling the virtues of L4 and I ask for their evidence. They don't seem to have any!

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:12:07 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'd worry about the efficacy of the parvo protection with a 9/10 week finish.

Wynne

[/quote]Absolutely. I have no faith in that. In the past the veterinary pharmaceutical industry has shown it cannot be trusted to give truthful data on this as it puts profit above ethics. I would still recommend a 12 week second vaccine or a third at 14-16 weeks which is a good recommendation regardless.

RE: Nobivac L4/Lepto 2 compatability

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:45:05 GMT

I'd worry about the efficacy of the parvo protection with a 9/10 week finish.

Wynne