Dental xray generator - which to choose?

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Rob Davis — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:18 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]Also they provide a HUGE size 5 plate, which he implied meant that I could do whole mouth xrays in a greyhound in just 6 shots.[/quote]

I'm not sure how big this sensor is, but the field of view will surely be limited by the diameter of the x-ray head. I find that the circle of exposure is is smaller than a size 4 film with my machine, so a larger plate really wouldn't help me much....

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Bob Russell — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:07:20 GMT

Our X-ray unit was one that Photon sourced for us years ago. Not sure how they knew about it but they checked it over and installed it. Seimens made it! Very long in the tooth but passes its inspections with flying colours.

The dental system is a 'Dr Suni' one. Somebody in Reading had two of them for sale. Box stank of cigarettes but all was fine. I do see the same person advertising from time to time but not recently. It was a risk but one that paid off. I knew this was the only way to escape looking at tiny bit of film with a magnifier.

Give me a ring if you want to see it in action (even if on a skull!).

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:00:18 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]Any feedback on iM3 and/or Veterinary Xrays appreciated. Let me know if you need any other info in order to comment that I have left out.[/quote]

Never trust the salesman - get the systems that you are considering in for a week or more demo each.

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Aisling McGrath — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:07:02 GMT

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to revive this topic, as purchase of dental xray equipment is imminent!

We've decided to go the "whole hog" and get a machine and digital processor.

We were considering Veterinary X-rays, but are now thinking about iM3. iM3 are around £2000 more expensive though! I spoke with the iM3 person today, and he was just saying about how they can get better pictures because they can achieve better resolution, better for interpreting tiny cat dental pictures as one can zoom in without losing quality.

He also mentioned about their rabbit plates (cost extra, but only company to offer them). We don't currently take rads of our rabbit dentals, but I'm thinking we probably should be!

Also they provide a HUGE size 5 plate, which he implied meant that I could do whole mouth xrays in a greyhound in just 6 shots.

Just wondering about the reality of the above statments? Is it worth the extra investment?

iM3 also implied that their after sales service would be excellent, and they would solve problems on the day, and even help interpret images etc - again, I'm just wondering how realistic all this is.

Any feedback on iM3 and/or Veterinary Xrays appreciated. Let me know if you need any other info in order to comment that I have left out.

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Rob Loxley — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:27:34 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]Can I ask how essential or not a patient-sized sink is to do dentistry in your opinion? [/quote]

A nice adjustable lift table without the restricted access of a fixed tub-table would be my preference. There are plenty of solutions to collecting the water either built into the table or as an add-on

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Andy Elliott — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 21:32:45 GMT

Bob, can you remember who you purchased this from and what make is it?

Cheers,

Andy

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:42:06 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]

Can I ask how essential or not a patient-sized sink is to do dentistry in your opinion? I've never known other, but have heard rumours of "dry" dental tables unless I've misunderstood?

[/quote]

We use a normal table and put the animal's head on one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rectangular-Stainless-Steel-Drip-Tray/dp/B00A65IVT6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436773068&sr=8-1&keywords=bar+drip+tray

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Bob Russell — Sat, 11 Jul 2015 10:23:37 GMT

Having been offered DR systems for around £4000 by people that knew little about dental X-rays, I took a risk and bought a six month old ex human DR system for about a thousand.

Probably the biggest risk I could have taken but the ebay seller (based in Reading) had more than one of them so paid for it in full. Best grand I have ever spent as the results are fantastic and such a relief not to be magnifying tiny bits of x-ray film. Software even has generic carnivores settings!

Thought I had made a bad move as the images had loads of lines across. Never happened when we practiced with a skull so eventually the penny dropped and it was interference caused by the heated mat on the table!

I tend to agree with Evelyn about the washing machine relocation being more important. Good dentistry brings good rewards both job wise and financially. Not sure I will ever be 'good' but certainly better!

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 22:47:17 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]Can I ask how essential or not a patient-sized sink is to do dentistry in your opinion?[/quote]

Not essential at all. Just use your ingenuity.

Michael's suggestions are good, for instance, though if I were just using an incontinence pad I'd hang it over the edge of the table and have something underneath to collect the overflow of water.

The Dental-Ease table top that he mentions is really really good: just pop it on or off an operating table as required, hang it on a hook on the wall when not in use.

[quote user="Beats"]I think we'll end up with a low-priced mobile unit on wheels,[/quote]

You may find yourself unconsciously discouraged from using it because of the faff of getting it and wheeling it up every time. Maybe not, it depends how you work.

[quote user="Beats"]Thanks for suggestion - it's not a crazy one, but would require the relocation of a washing machine amongst other reasonable practical objections.[/quote]

You currently do your dentistry next to a washing machine? Would any other kind of surgeon accept having to work in such conditions?

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 22:33:23 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]I've never known other, but have heard rumours of "dry" dental tables unless I've misunderstood?[/quote]

We use a normal table with the animal's head on a stainless cooling rack over an incontinence pad (we have no space).

I stole the method from a place I saw practice.

We are moving into a larger premises and we will have a tub table there, but because we can dedicate the space to it.

There are various commercial solutions to the problem:

http://www.vet-direct.com/default.php?sid=VD-7624-9372-3016&sessiontag=prodfullview&data=11741

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Beats — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 22:25:43 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Or wall off that area to make a proper dental room. Get your dentistry done in peace. [/quote]

Thanks for suggestion - it's not a crazy one, but would require the relocation of a washing machine amongst other reasonable practical objections.

The other radical one would be to do dentals somewhere else in the clinic

Suggestions to date have been a consult room (wrong on so many levels), the sterile prep area beside theatre (it already has a sink and a brick wall don't you know ) or the ultrasound room. If the latter, then we lose the only quiet room in the clinic for hiding rabbits or scared cats (mixed kennels with barking dogs) prior to surgery or for blood sampling, BP etc, and might end up with an unwieldy patient-sized sink contraption where there once was an adjustable table with wheels (that often has to be moved to open the door and get round the room...).

Can I ask how essential or not a patient-sized sink is to do dentistry in your opinion? I've never known other, but have heard rumours of "dry" dental tables unless I've misunderstood?

I think we'll end up with a low-priced mobile unit on wheels, thus allowing theoretical use in theatre also as well as moving where dentals are done at a later date (it's really not that ergonomic at present anyway). The stumbling block here was where to store it (a genuine problem) and an aversion to just getting some chemical to get some practice in without worrying about doing full mouth rads in every patient in under 10mins and then upgrade to a digital system after trialling a couple to check their fit in the clinic and having a better understanding of what we were looking at.

I think the AGFA developer would probably take appropriate cassettes to be of use, so that would be a no brainer for me. Size 2 plate for a cat is apparently all right, and size 2 +/- size 4 seems to work for dogs.

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:22:10 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"] Beyond the fact it has AGFA written on it, I don't know what kind of machine it is, but I do believe it is possible to buy an extra large plate with lots of little plates inside? Are these little plates easy to fit in cats mouths?[/quote]

If they are what I think they are, yes. And I don't think it needs to be an extra large plate.

Don't fool around with chemicals if you can get digital.

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"] Turns out they were in our practice only a few weeks ago doing an inspection, typical![/quote]

They should have your layout fresh in mind then!

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:58:37 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]We also have a third of prep room (which is pretty much a through corridor to kennels area from consult rooms) as dental-area. I contacted our RPA and it is a mine-field was my thoughts coming away from that chat - so speak to yours before doing much else - their number will be up in your xray room somewhere. By the time she was discussing chains across the room, it became apparent that we did not have a decent supporting wall nearby and wheeling amobile unit in for each exposure might be required, I did wonder whether simply picking up the patient and taking it into the current xray room and then back again once done might not be jsut as convenient... that's what we do for all other cases requiring xrays...[/quote]

Or wall off that area to make a proper dental room. Get your dentistry done in peace.

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Aisling McGrath — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:56:08 GMT

Thanks to everyone for all your advice! We do have a digital processor already in our practice for our normal xrays, and this is pretty new. Beyond the fact it has AGFA written on it, I don't know what kind of machine it is, but I do believe it is possible to buy an extra large plate with lots of little plates inside? Are these little plates easy to fit in cats mouths? I am willing to start with manual processing first if needed, but of course digital would be quicker. Have asked our practice manager to contact RPA person for advice on placement of machine etc. Turns out they were in our practice only a few weeks ago doing an inspection, typical!

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Beats — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 20:18:13 GMT

My boss returned from a CPD event a couple of months ago to announce we needed a dental xray unit and manual development wasn't an option - we needed it digitial.

When I picked myself off the floor from shock, I was delighted of course. I even wondered if we might finally get a dental probe too!

Things have kind of stalled though since.

For what it's worth, here's what I'd gotten from digging (having no previous experience of anything other than a second-hand ex. local dentist unit).

If throwing money at the thing, then throwing at the processing system (if going digital) will be more rewarding that throwing it at the xray generator.

Digital processing systems can be CR (little plates in mouth, range of sizes, need to "develop" them in digitial processor) or DR (expensive probe in mouth, probably size 2, images straight on to screen). CR7 coming in at around £6000-7000, decent digital system (eg Sophos) coming in at around £5000, cheap digital system (I'm told you'll regret it) coming in at around £3000. A black box out of B&Q and some chemicals is likely to come in under £250 even with waste disposal considered. If you have digital already with a processor that can take dental plates, then cost of just getting the appropriate plates probably few hundred pounds.

Some argue that DR is easier learned, some argue that CR is easier learned. Some argue that DR is quicker, some argue that CR is quicker. Both can be "trialled" or "demo'd" in your clinic setting for you to choose.

On the generator units:

Reconditioned unit through reliable source £800-1000

Cheapish, decent unit £1800

Nomad (handheld - don't drop it) £2200

Posh systems with 0.4mm focal spot (rather than 0.7mm) £4000

We also have a third of prep room (which is pretty much a through corridor to kennels area from consult rooms) as dental-area. I contacted our RPA and it is a mine-field was my thoughts coming away from that chat - so speak to yours before doing much else - their number will be up in your xray room somewhere. By the time she was discussing chains across the room, it became apparent that we did not have a decent supporting wall nearby and wheeling amobile unit in for each exposure might be required, I did wonder whether simply picking up the patient and taking it into the current xray room and then back again once done might not be jsut as convenient... that's what we do for all other cases requiring xrays...

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Bob Russell — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:10:52 GMT

We have a very long in the tooth second hand machine that was supplied from a dental practice. Been going strong for years. Virtually never change the settings and get great images. A couple of hundred quid plus the cost of getting it checked out! It does wander about a bit if the arm is extended in one particular direction. We know its foibles well enough!

Passes all its inspections year after year and we must have had it for nearly 10 years.

If I was buying new probably would go for satelec.

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 09 Jul 2015 22:42:31 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]with a diagram of a human mouth on the side which you could press buttons on for different teeth, [/quote]

That's fun but you don't need it. The only exposure setting you change is time, and as macvet says there is only a handful of different ones required.

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"] I believe once staff are 2m away from the xray its ok? [/quote]

Yes, but I'm not at all sure if it's as simple as that; it must also depend which way the beam is pointing. Call your Radiation Protection Advisor for specific advice about your own premises (RPAs usually have to do sweet FA so you might as well get your money's worth for once). You may at least need to dot monitoring badges about the place.

About processing: what do you use for the main practice Xray?

And remember you could invest in dental DR, that's another route to consider.

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

macvet — Thu, 09 Jul 2015 22:16:17 GMT

Hi Aisling, We just purchased a Satalec from Scotrad - think £2400 fitted - and have been very happy with it. It is a veterinary specific and like the human one you used has buttons with presets for different teeth. However the required exposure will vary with different processors. After a while we have found we only need a handful of exposures anyway so not too difficult to remember. Couldn't live without it now. Our RPA says 0.5 m away from x ray ok though staff have option of being behind concrete block wall. Re processor we went for AGFA cr15 which has a good selection of dental intraoral plates along with usual plates for use with main generator. I tried the cr7 processor I think you are referring to at a recent course and image quality is amazing but just just too expensive for us!

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Aisling McGrath — Thu, 09 Jul 2015 21:38:22 GMT

Thanks for the prompt reply! We were split in two groups for the xray bit of the course, so I was actually using a different machine, which was a human one, with a diagram of a human mouth on the side which you could press buttons on for different teeth, so I didn't actually get to use the other one unfortunately, but the other group did seem to get some good xrays from that machine. Might try and get them to bring one to practice for a demo? I'll check about after-sale service etc. Main issue we have is space, as ideally a dental "suite" would be amazing, however our clinic can't really expand in any direction! Currently our dental area is one third of our prep room, so if we stuck with same location, the dental xray could be wall mounted there. I believe once staff are 2m away from the xray its ok? I"m concerned that the nurses won't accept an xray machine in anywhere but the xray room though....

RE: Dental xray generator - which to choose?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 09 Jul 2015 21:12:09 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]This seems like excellent value to me, and I was just wondering what other people have bought, or are buying, and are there any particular qualities or important features that one needs to look out for?[/quote]

Manoeuvrability and general handiness. Is it easy to swing about and postion exactly? Will it slowly drift away from where you've put it? When you've finished with it, is it easy to swing out of the way?

Is it going to be ceiling, wall or trolley? Whichever, make sure it will fit.

You can get bells and whistles but you don't need them. The range of exposures you will need to be setting is very limited indeed .

Veterinary Xrays have a good reputation so it probably isn't some rubbish they've bought in unseen from China.

And, of course, warranty and after-sale service. And are they going to hammer you with an expensive service contract after the first year?