Goat spay

RE: Goat spay

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 16:40:42 GMT

I noticed they got an equine soft tissue surgeon to do it though!

RE: Goat spay

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:12:34 GMT

Vet School on ITV NOW - spay a goat.

Re: Goat spay

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 13:47:48 GMT

It's the male Rotties that need castrating the most for behaviour /aggression problems! Typical!

Re: Goat spay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 12:03:38 GMT

I diagnose grumpyoldman is suffering from severe scrabble disease!

Wynne

Re: Goat spay

grumpyoldman — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:12:59 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"] higher in those neutered between 1 and 3.5 years of age, and those neutered over 3.5 years of age, cmopared to un-neutered Rottweilers:[/quote]

The entire animals >5 yrs old would tend to be owned by breeders and show people who will be much more inclined to sit on it and watch it deteriorate slowly then just have it euthanised as an undiagnosed case rather than have it worked up with X-rays etc. We see this all the time with the DDBs IWH ,PMDs ,GDs, The pet people will be nice and want to know what it is before pulling the trigger ,they will also have them neutered and feed them better.

Re: Goat spay

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 09:00:11 GMT

From memory this is a retrospective study and does not take into account other factors such as obesity and lifestyle. As one factor for tumour formation is said to be concussive trauma, presumably this is more of an issue with typically fat, neutered rotties!

Not saying there isn't an issue and generally I suggest later neutering for larger breeds, things are not always as clear as the study suggests!

Re: Goat spay

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 08:37:00 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

It prevents BPH and all things related to this, ie prostatitis, prostatic cyst, abscess. AFAIK neoplasia is unrelated. Obesity post castration? Entirely preventable. Re increased risk of other tumours, is there any hard evidence of this? Or is it just because more dogs are neutered than entire?

[/quote]

There's a paper here looking at the increased risk of osteosarcoma in neutered Rottweilers:

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full

[/quote]

The study compared male rotties neutered under 1 year. So it's ok if they are over 1 year before neutering? Any studies been done in this country?

[/quote]

Not sure if there are any UK studies, but table 4 of this paper does suggest that while the incidence of osteosarcomas is much higher in Rottweilers neutered under 1 year of age, it is also a little higher in those neutered between 1 and 3.5 years of age, and those neutered over 3.5 years of age, cmopared to un-neutered Rottweilers:

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434/T4.expansion.html

Re: Goat spay

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:49:01 GMT

I kind of want to spay a goat now.

To stay within the cascade you could induce with ketamine? That's what we use in calves and sheep (after xylazine pre med).

Re: Goat spay

grumpyoldman — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:28:04 GMT

I have done bits with goats before , rompun premed propofolor alfaxan iv to effect stomach tube first then intubate with an 8mm ET tube with a 5mm im pin in the middle(laryngoscope with extended tongue helps a lot) until your past the larynx then withdraw otherwise you will not get it in. You can neuter with flank sublumbar paramedian incisions on both sides and perform ovarectomy through two small holes .

Re: Goat spay

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 19:41:54 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

[/quote]

There's a paper here looking at the increased risk of osteosarcoma in neutered Rottweilers:

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full

[/quote]

The study compared male rotties neutered under 1 year. So it's ok if they are over 1 year before neutering? Any studies been done in this country?

Re: Goat spay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:57:58 GMT

The link between osteosarcoma and neutering is certainly something I point out to all owners of dogs Rottie size or above when discussing pros/cons of neutering.

Wynne

Re: Goat spay

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:07:00 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

[/quote]

There's a paper here looking at the increased risk of osteosarcoma in neutered Rottweilers:

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full

Re: Goat spay

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:32:57 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]It's a 100 per cent effective at stopping testicular tumours, prevents most prostate problems, anal adenomas...[/quote]

Define "most prostate problems". AFAIK castration is associated with an increased risk of prostatic carcinoma. It's also not guaranteed to prevent anal adenomas. Then there is the increased risk of obesity, possible links with increased risk of haemangiosarcoma and osteosarcoma. I tend to feel that castration of male dogs should be on a risk/benefit basis for that particular dog

[/quote]

Re: Goat spay

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:26:32 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I don't think ALL procedures should be a matter for discussion between owner and veterinary surgeon. [/quote]

Of course they should.

I've already said that a vet doesn't have to carry out a procedure that is either beyond their level of expertise or they feel is unethical. But all procedures should be discussed. For example, I think wing clipping in birds is wrong and refuse to do it in most cases. However, I will see the client, then discuss my reasons, and will occasionally carry it out if I can be convinced in an individual case that it is warranted.

Re: Goat spay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:09:02 GMT

I'mnot suggesting just saying "I won't do it" but "I won't do it because..........." and then refusing to budge, if the owner tries further persuaion.

Wynne

Re: Goat spay

Sammy82 — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 10:50:46 GMT

We should still discuss with the owner WHY we refuse to do a certain procedure so they don't just go to another practice until they find a vet who does the operation for them. Maybe, in the goat spay case, there was no discussion at all when the boss booked it in. Possibly the goat owner only had dogs/cats before, they all got neutered as advised by the vet as well as dog protection etc., so maybe she just thought that neutering was part of being a good goat owner too.

Re: Goat spay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 08:39:01 GMT

I don't think ALL procedures should be a matter for discussion between owner and veterinary surgeon. There are some cases, such as this goat hysterectomy, where our duty to the animal demands that we refuse the owners request - emphatically.

The pros/cons of dog castration are more debatable, therefore that is a suitable subject for discussion between owner and veterinary surgeon.

Wynne

Re: Goat spay

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 07:40:35 GMT

I haven't debated the choice to castrate as it should, like all procedures, be a decision between owner and vet having discussed pros and cons in a specific animal.

However, it can be argued that it brings some benefit in some cases. Unlike cosmetic procedures and those carried out ssimply for owner convenience!

Re: Goat spay

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 22:51:17 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]It's a 100 per cent effective at stopping testicular tumours, prevents most prostate problems, anal adenomas...[/quote]

Best do a mammary strip in all bitches at six months of age, then, to prevent mammary neoplasia. Remove any white pinnae from cats. Amputate a limb, it will reduce the chances of osteosarcoma by 25%.

I've never bought this "it will stop it getting cancer of the....." argument.

Re: Goat spay

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 22:40:40 GMT

Perineal hernias nearly always in entire males.

Re: Goat spay

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 21:05:20 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

It's a 100 per cent effective at stopping testicular tumours, prevents most prostate problems, anal adenomas...

[/quote]

Most testicular tumours in dogs are benign - in fact I've never seen one that wasn't -and I see nearly as many perianal adenomas in spayed bitches and neutered males as i do in entire males. These are not always benign,especially if left for a while.

Prostate cancer is at best unaffected by neutering but it's a pretty rare problem I feel, not having ever diagnosed a case personally. Certainly there is a helpful effect on BPH - but neutering males is an easy and pretty safe procedure at almost any age, while spaying becomes progressively more risky ( and difficult) as the bitch gets older. And Ypozane works very well on BPH if for any reason surgery is contraindicated.

Dr Evelyn has the right of it - just one unneutered male could 'seduce' every female for miles around, so just neutering the boys has little effect on overpopulation issues. It's more of management tool - i think some clients think neutering calms young boisterous dogs down. Of course it doesn't but those same clients will over feed until the dog is so fat it has to slow down...but there are definite behavioural benefits especially regarding inter dog aggression and he tendency to wander. But not every unneutered male dog has these issues anyway

Re: Goat spay

Utlendigur — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 20:48:19 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]It's a 100 per cent effective at stopping testicular tumours, prevents most prostate problems, anal adenomas...[/quote]

Re: Goat spay

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 19:46:05 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Castration of dogs............???[/quote]

Of course. The vast majority of the stray dogs we get are entire males....

[/quote]

Relevance?

Neutering male cats and dogs is not going to make any significant difference to the production of kittens and puppies, unless maybe you can achieve 100% castration in a locality.

Cos of biology.

And, er, what real benefits does elective castration confer upon a male dog? One: it makes the dog a better pet in the eyes of the owner . That's also the main reason for spaying bitches. And for a domestic animal it's a real, genuine, benefit. Just nothing to do with health or prevention of unwanted puppies.

[/quote]

It's a 100 per cent effective at stopping testicular tumours, prevents most prostate problems, anal adenomas...

Re: Goat spay

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 14:56:12 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Castration of dogs............???[/quote]

Of course. The vast majority of the stray dogs we get are entire males....

[/quote]

Relevance?

Neutering male cats and dogs is not going to make any significant difference to the production of kittens and puppies, unless maybe you can achieve 100% castration in a locality.

Cos of biology.

Re: Goat spay

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 13:55:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Castration of dogs............???[/quote]

Of course. The vast majority of the stray dogs we get are entire males....

Unless you think that the girl should always be the one to take responsibility for avoiding pregnancy?