Chicken with a distended crop

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 21:11:12 GMT

Thanks Mark, points well received!

I quite agree, and would do things differently now - this was about 10 years ago and we have moved forwards.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Mark Naguib — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 20:07:57 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

The one chicken i saw with this condition died under GA ( IM Dom/Ketamine if i remember, was some years ago) because some horrible grey fluid like dishwater rose out of the crop and shot down the airway before we realised what was happening.

[/quote]

Hi Stephen,

Sorry to hear that - it's always horrible when you get an unexpected GA death in any species. I've operated on a lot of crops in a poultry, parrots and birds of prey and fortunately haven't had any airway problems.

I wouldn't recommend injectable anaesthesia in birds - there are very few reasons to use injectables in the vast majority of avian species. It's always a good idea to intubate them with a decent sized ET tube - not just for crop surgery but for most procedures in most species. Intubation is relatively easy compared to mammals and doesn't add any significant time to the procedure.

Best regards,

Mark

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:42:40 GMT

It's possible you're right. I thought the AWA merely replaced the 1911 Cruelty to Animals Act.

Wynne

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:20:21 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]My point that operating whilst the animal could feel is definitely ground for prosecution under both the Animal Welfare Act, and the Protection of Animals (Anaesthesia) Act is still a valid one.[/quote]

I was under the impression that that Act had been repealed (or was deemed to be repealed, or superseded, or whatever the term is), along with the other Protection of Animals Acts, by the Animal Welfare Act.

I'd be very pleased to be wrong. It was a brilliant Act, straightforward and unequivocal: you must not perform any operation upon a sensitive tissue or bone of any animal without first rendering it insensible to pain. Full stop. Not like the wishywashy vague AWA. I was fond of citing it in relation to horses' teeth, noting that dentine is a sensitive tissue.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:48:07 GMT

Micheal. Point accepted. I should have written "without anaesthesia", or "whilst sentient"

My point that operating whilst the animal could feel is definitely ground for prosecution under both the Animal Welfare Act, and the Protection of Animals (Anaesthesia) Act is still a valid one.

Wynne

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 22:15:25 GMT

So I'm disappointed other that local anaesthesia is considered a bad idea. But take comfort in knowing the cases are fairly sporadic, at least so far.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 21:27:50 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Operating whilst concious would definitely be ground fot a prosecution - under 2 Acts.

[/quote]

With local anaesthetic? Was I a bad man doing a cow caesarian this lunchtime?

Without local - the yes, obviously.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 18:33:51 GMT

Operating whilst concious would definitely be ground fot a prosecution - under 2 Acts.

Wynne

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 22:13:31 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"] Still I am not convinced that there is any permitted GA agent for hens, so this does limit our possibilities for diagnostic tests and surgery.[/quote]

Not really. Technically there may be nothing licensed, but in a pet hen I don't think you could use 'lack of licensed agent' as a reason to carry out conscious surgery, on welfare grounds. If you're not happy going off license then I guess euthanasia is preferable.

[quote user="Sammy82"] if all the owner wants to spend is £10 the kindest option for the hen will be euthanisia in many cases,[/quote]

Absolutely. This happens more frequently with exotic pets, but not infrequently with cats and dogs too!

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Sammy82 — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 19:04:30 GMT

The main 2 reasons we are forced to treat farm animals differently are the restrictions of what medicines we are allowed to use in food producing animals, and obviously costs, which might or might not be a problem in a pet hen. I do agree that an impacted crop can be a symptom of systemic disease so this should be addressed. Still I am not convinced that there is any permitted GA agent for hens, so this does limit our possibilities for diagnostic tests and surgery. Of course we should offer radiography (again we will need to restrain the bird for this) and other work up, but if all the owner wants to spend is £10 the kindest option for the hen will be euthanisia in many cases, especially as birds are so good at hiding disease and often are only brought to the vet when already very thin and chronically ill.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

CatherineThomas — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 18:17:26 GMT

I agree with Marie and Gillian, i've had clients ask me to do this conscious before and I have refused. If they don't want to pay for this then I will offer euthanasia.

I don't think masking down has the same welfare implications as conscious surgery - it only takes a very short time for them to start to become anaesthetised.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:35:04 GMT

There seems to be disagreement as to whether treatment should be changed depending on whether the animal is a farm or pet animal. I find that odd. Surely treatment should be the best available, including adequate analgesia? What is available might be different on farm, but in a small animal practice it is simple to provide excellent levels of care- no?

Like Marie, I prefer my exotic patients to be fully anaesthetised before I do anything painful. However, individual cases can vary, depending on what is best for the animal. I suspect Marie, like I, is simply too used to exotic species being afforded less welfare consideration than the more 'routine' species. Just because they can be held, or because they don't fight back, it is assumed they are OK. As I say, all situations are different, but ideally we should be offering the best service we can, irrespective of species or location.

Incidentally, with regard to costs, if a client is not prepared to pay what it costs to give their pet what I consider a minimum standard of care, I will strongly recommend euthanasia. This is irrespective of whether it is a dog, cat, chicken or mouse. If they can't afford GA for surgery, it doesn't get the surgery.

I also agree with Marie that it is wrong to assume all impacted crops are due to simply a crop food content problem. It is like assuming all vomiting dogs have a gastric FB. You'll miss more problems than you'll cure.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Sammy82 — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:18:41 GMT

[quote user="David Shepherd"]

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

The treatment can involve giving the bird supportive care such as fluids and hoping that the problem resolves itself but ideally surgery under a local anaesthetic to remove the offending material followed by washing the inside of the crop with sterile saline is recommended.

The information is on public display

http://www.chickenvet.co.uk/health-and-common-diseases/digestive-problems/index.aspx

Neil

[/quote]

I'm surprised and disappointed that they are advocating this and make no mention of more welfare-conscious methods, other big considerations like assessment to ascertain if the proventriculus is impacted as well and don't give any information on the significant risks associated with local anaesthesia toxicity. I still feel that this is not a method that should be promoted or considered acceptable practice.

Re; anaesthesia, We use isoflurane as our main agent as it has a withdrawal time determined in horses and isn't on the prohibited list.

Marie

[/quote]

So, in order to induce anaesthesia with iso, presumably you need to mask the chicken down in some way. I cant see that this is any less distressing to the chicken that the gentle restraint/local anaesthesia method mentioned above.

David

[/quote]

I quite agree with David there, I find masking down without prior deep sedation seems very distreressing for the animal. I also don't think Iso can be used in any other food producing species other than horses, it only says equidae on the

eu list. We have the same problem as with Ivermectin or baytril here, as already discussed in another thread (ivermectin use in chicken).

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

David Shepherd — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:26:10 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

The information is on public display

http://www.chickenvet.co.uk/health-and-common-diseases/digestive-problems/index.aspx

Neil

[/quote]

Re; anaesthesia, We use isoflurane as our main agent as it has a withdrawal time determined in horses and isn't on the prohibited list.

Marie

[/quote]

David

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:50:07 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

The information is on public display

http://www.chickenvet.co.uk/health-and-common-diseases/digestive-problems/index.aspx

Neil

[/quote]

Re; anaesthesia, We use isoflurane as our main agent as it has a withdrawal time determined in horses and isn't on the prohibited list.

Marie

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 00:38:46 GMT

From the Chickenvet Website

Impacted crop

The crop is a part of the oesophagus (food pipe) where the initial stages of digestion can occur. The crop is found at the base of the neck where you can sometimes feel the contents whether they are food, grit or water.

There are two common conditions of the crop: crop impaction and sour crop.

Crop impaction is where there is a problem with either the crop or the proventriculus (the stomach) where food fails to move from the crop to the stomach. There are two potential causes for this obstruction, either there is a foreign body which is blocking the passage of food such as string/plastic or long grass or the second possible cause can occur when the normal muscular contractions fail and movement of food is prevented from passing into the digestive system. Such causes can be problems with the nervous system which controls the muscular contractions; one such condition is Mareks disease.

These birds present as dull, with little or no appetite, and have a firm impacted crop.

The information is on public display

http://www.chickenvet.co.uk/health-and-common-diseases/digestive-problems/index.aspx

Neil

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 22:50:55 GMT

I'm quite happy entering the gastrointestinal or reproductive tract in cattle and sheep with local (and sometimes sedative). Some of the evil bastard cows I've done caesareans on can hardly be considered tame.

One place I saw practice castrated rabbits by sitting them on their bottom on a nurses lap and infused local - the bunnies were absolutely not stressed and it was very safe. They would go back into the cage an eat.

If you look to human medicine then they are doing increasingly large numbers of operations under local anaesthesia.

Quite interesting looking at the cascade issue and treatment of chickens - Marie - how would you GA a chicken?

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Sammy82 — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 20:18:44 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"] Extrapolating we can castrate cats cheaper by pinning them and doing surgery conscious but that would be considered abhorrent to everyone here (I hope!)[/quote]

Take

One 4 month old bull calf

Add in a cattle crush and hold it's neck tight

Inject a couple of ml's of local into each testicle (can you just imagine that?)

Cut, pull and there you have it

I'd rather be a chicken

Neil

[/quote]

Very true. I think we have to ask ourselves (and the owner), are we treating a pet or farm animal? I believe that any animal deserves the best painrelief/anaesthesia that is appropiate for the procedure. Unfortunately farm animals often don't get the best but rather affordable pain relief. We have to make clear to back yard chicken owners who want the best possible treatment (GA incl intubation ect.) but are only prepared to pay farm prices that they can't have it. If they want pet treatment they will need to pay pet prices. Apart from costs there is another big issue with chicken GAs. As far as I am aware Ketamin is the only anaesthetic like drug that could be used under the cascade. Not even Xylazine is ok as only licensed f bovine/equidae. Isoflurane is only allowed for equidae. What do people use for laying hens?

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 14:36:33 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"] Extrapolating we can castrate cats cheaper by pinning them and doing surgery conscious but that would be considered abhorrent to everyone here (I hope!)[/quote]

Take

One 4 month old bull calf

Add in a cattle crush and hold it's neck tight

Inject a couple of ml's of local into each testicle (can you just imagine that?)

Cut, pull and there you have it

I'd rather be a chicken

Neil

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 13:28:37 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Oh how I agree on this one, and can be extended to fracture repairs, anything really. I've used the argument in many cases that a vet is a fixed cost and you're there anyway, so all you're loosing is a piece of suture material and a spot of local. (This is how I learnt a lot of surgery when I first qualified) However almost no-one agrees with this. The main one is that if Mr X says to Mrs Y, the vet operated on my chicken for £10, we'd be inundated.

But we're not pinning the chicken down here are we? Yes we are entering the GI tract but in a very superficial way. An analogy is a 15 year old cat that I removed a pedunculated mass from recently. Local and 3 staples and the owner was absolutely delighted, not least because the cat was so much happier afterwards

I have absolutely no doubt that chickens, rabbits, hamsters feel things in the same way as you and I do, but we have to work within a budget in lots of cases and if the alternative was death either by starvation or euthatal which would you choose?

Neil

[/quote]

As above, removing a superficial mass in a cat is not the same. I would equate crop surgery more closely to placing an oesophagostomy tube into a cat for which GA is invariably recommended as far as I can see.

I don't hesitate to recommend euthanasia if the animal is not going to recover on its own or with minimal intervantion and the owner will not fund appropriate treatment. As far as I am concerned the patient welfare is my main priority and euthanasia prevents any negative welfare so is my option if positive welfare is not going to be achievable.

Marie

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 13:21:20 GMT

Yes - a domesticated species, used to human contact and not at significant risk from use of local anaesthesia and for only superficial treatment. Stress is far lower than a non-domesticated animal not used to human restraint, with contra-indication for local anaesthesia and entering a non-sterile GIT.

Marie

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 13:08:38 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]I know that money is usually tight and chickens are more subtle about showing stress and pain but I really don't think this is an approach to promote. If you are doing it because you feel that the owner's budget is the priority then why not negotiate with bosses with the premise that you are expanding your skillset, discount the GA fee, learn something and do it in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary suffering?[/quote]

Neil

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Linda Filshie — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 13:08:08 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

But would you honestly do the same to a cat or dog? [/quote]

I would happily do minor lumpectomy in a compliant dog with local anaesthetic if I deemed the GA risk too great. Is that so far different?

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 12:39:40 GMT

Bear in mind that anaesthetising these birds can result in almost instant aspiration of crop contents. You have to have your bits and pieces ready and someone holding the head up until safely intubated.

Re: Chicken with a distended crop

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 12:21:24 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

I do sympathise with this, however it's almost a sense of surprise when anyone will spend more than £10 or 2ml of euthatal on a pet chicken. If we can make a difference with a simple surgical procedure with a potential increased risk then I personally see little problem with this. The chicken I did lived past the 6 months I stayed at the practice (I know as I saw the owner again) By being able to actually do something also increases interest and subsequent skill. The only hassle in a practice is that you are suddenly labelled the 'Chicken Expert' and you get all the appointments.

Neil

[/quote]

But would you honestly do the same to a cat or dog? If not why is this scenario ok? Extrapolating we can castrate cats cheaper by pinning them and doing surgery conscious but that would be considered abhorrent to everyone here (I hope!) so why is less consideration given to the welfare of a chicken?

I know that money is usually tight and chickens are more subtle about showing stress and pain but I really don't think this is an approach to promote. If you are doing it because you feel that the owner's budget is the priority then why not negotiate with bosses with the premise that you are expanding your skillset, discount the GA fee, learn something and do it in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary suffering?

Marie