Ivermectin use in chickens

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Sammy82 — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 21:44:22 GMT

Why is having a table that tells you if you can use a drug in a certain food producing species making it more difficult? Neither Ivermectin nor Eprinectin have an established MRL for birds or eggs, therefore nobody knows for sure what the safe withdrawal period would be. Personally I prefer my roast chicken drug free. (They actually made it easier now, used to be 4 different tables when I graduated)

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:38:10 GMT

EU making everything 10x more difficult than necessary. What a surprise (not)

Wynne

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

tess — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:26:34 GMT

Why would you want to use ivermectin when the diatemaceous earth does the job??

For my own hens I'd far rather try to avoid meds like that when there's an alternative that works. It's a no-brainer really.

( and I still think we should be quizzing owners in detail about husbandry and henhouse hygiene.)

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:53:10 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If I can get 15 minutes together I've got to resurrect my other thread with JHL over the use of the cascade.....[/quote]More like half a lifetime...

PS thanks for the piece about use of Eprinex.

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Sammy82 — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 00:44:57 GMT

We are in such a difficult situation, especially when treating food producing pets. I just had a look at the table in the

EU directive, and Eprinectin is licenced/has an MRL for cattle only, which means we must not use it for pigs, chickens or any other food producing species other than cattle. For Ivermectin and Doramectin it says "all food producing mammals", again illegal to use off licence for birds. So even if we follow the latest advice given at CPD events we break the rules?

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 23:08:17 GMT

I've been to a Victoria Roberts CPD on backyard poultry where she gave exactly that advice on the use of Eprinex for mites, and we have used it since then (with advice on diatomaceous earth and management too). I'm not now sure what we will continue to use!

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:46:46 GMT

[quote user="Mark Naguib"]I didn't mean to come across as antagonistic or start a thread war! My apologies if I came across the wrong way,[/quote]

You are apologising to the wrong person, I love a bit of antagonism.

If I can get 15 minutes together I've got to resurrect my other thread with JHL over the use of the cascade.....

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Mark Naguib — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:42:39 GMT

Hi Michael,

I didn't mean to come across as antagonistic or start a thread war! The VMD statement is about the use of SAES products in other species for which they are not intended (e.g. Xeno, used in a species that is not a small furry). Choosing to use ivomec instead of Xeno in a small furry is a different situation and up to you, as neither is licensed. The VMD have confirmed this on a few occasions.

My apologies if I came across the wrong way,

Best regards,

Mark

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:36:57 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I looked up Eprinex and it is a pour on cattle wormer, no mention for use on poultry - so how does that work out? Chickenvet.co.uk recommends Flubenvet for worms but concurs on diamataceous earth for mites[/quote]

"There are no licensed products to control Northern Fowl mite. Eprinectin (Eprinex:Merial) appears safe at a dose of 5 drops (laboratory pipette) on the shoulder skin for adult large fowl and 3 drops on shoulder skin for bantams. Re-infestation can occur at any time, but eprinectin is protective for about 4 weeks (withdrawal time for eggs is 7 days)." (Victoria Roberts MRCVS is listed as the author)

http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/diseases-of-farmyard-poultry/part-4-external-and-internal-parasites-of-chickens.aspx

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:19:31 GMT

[quote user="Mark Naguib"]I'm sorry for bringing this subject up again in another post but I feel it's important to point out that these products are not licensed! They're sold under the Small Animal Exemption Scheme. In the case of small furries, they come under the same tier of the cascade as the Ivomec.[/quote]

The VMD says:

Exemption products do not fall under the cascade. If a veterinary surgeon chooses to use an exemption product not in accordance with its product literature then he/she may do so – but it will no longer be deemed to be an exemption product. It is the veterinary surgeon’s decision which product to use, based on his/her clinical judgement.

When we had our first VMD medicines inspection we were told off for the bottle of Ivomec and told to use such products. For Gods sake.......

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Mark Naguib — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:14:03 GMT

[quote]We used to use it for the small furies, but don't anymore now the Xeno type froducts exist and I follow the cascade.[/quote]

I'm sorry for bringing this subject up again in another post but I feel it's important to point out that these products are not licensed! They're sold under the Small Animal Exemption Scheme. In the case of small furries, they come under the same tier of the cascade as the Ivomec.

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Luca Poddighe — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:05:20 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Can we make a pet chicken not a food producing animal?[/quote]

If you get consent from the owner and a signed disclaimer explaining that they cannot eat eggs or meat from that chicken, I suppose, you have done it.

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:41:47 GMT

Martin - I will look at home, I think I have it on my desk there. Technically it looks like we might not be able to use anything!

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:15:29 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

We use spot on Eprinex as it is licensed for use in food producing animals.

For mites or lice in chickens I would use Diatomaceous first.

[/quote]Interesting. I've been asked to go a local special needs farm which has around 30 laying hens where they sell the eggs, and advise on parasite control.

I looked up Eprinex and it is a pour on cattle wormer, no mention for use on poultry - so how does that work out? Chickenvet.co.uk recommends Flubenvet for worms but concurs on diamataceous earth for mites

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 13:26:09 GMT

I wonder if the 'not for use in other species' is new, because the Eprinex data sheet isn't something I read frequently!

I see the Ivomec injection states: "The product is specifically for use in the target species"

We used to use it for the small furies, but don't anymore now the Xeno type froducts exist and I follow the cascade.

Are we saying that we can't use any topical insecticides in poultry?

Can we make a pet chicken not a food producing animal?

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Sammy82 — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:52:07 GMT

I'd say the final trump for using/not using a medicine for a food producing animal lies with the EU directive 37/2010. It has a table that list all the substances, MRLs and withdrawal periods, and it says which species you can use it in. If it lists MRL, meat and egg withdrawal for chickens you can use it (following the cascade), if it doesn't you just can't. I don't think the datasheet overrides this. Is ignoring the datasheet not what going of licence is all about?

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

james herriot lied — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:29:25 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

To me that is very different to randomly decide to inject by a different route based on little more than whim. The other thread died out because I went down to Hertfordshire for the weekend and forgot about it.

[/quote]

That's not why the other thread died out......

Love it. Absolutely love it. Our phrase for the day is now 'little more than a whim'. I have a dog with chronic abdominal pain, which I'm going to ultrasound on 'little more than a whim'*. Then there's the dog with some stiffness on rising, which came back for reassessment after I'd put it on meloxicam on 'little more than a whim'. It's much better - what a lucky guess*.

As to the rest, I could have saved you a heap of effort: we all know what the cascade says - I've been doing this even longer than you and remember much of this cobblers coming in - but where a product data sheet specifically excludes use in a particular species, this trumps the cascade. You've been told categorically that this product is not for fowl, so how does a second-party recommendation override this?

I'd be quite happy to use eprinex in chickens, just so you know, but the bottle of 'guinea pig' panomec is more cost-effective and works equally well. What I'm really enjoying, after your previous outpouring of wisdom, is the vain attempt at post-rationalisation. All of us go off-licence every damn day, either because of our own clinical experience and resistance to drug company 'research' (me) or because we're into theories given to us by colleagues (you); it's just that the rest of us don't feel the need to lecture our colleagues on one thing, whilst doing another. Use eprinex - I bet it works a treat - but understand that people who sit in judgment are often surprised to find themselves judged.

All the best.

*: we used to call it clinical judgment, but 'little more than a whim' sounds loads better.....

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:43:03 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]Now, I see you're using a drug in a non-indicated species - in this case, despite explicit data sheet instructions not to use it in species other than cattle - with the justification that, in your own -unsupported - opinion, the eggs will be safe to eat.[/quote]

Interesting isn't it. I got the suggestion of the Eprinex (with the supposition that the eggs remained safe) from a recognised poultry vet who produced a poster in conjunction with the BVA......

There are no licensed insecticidal products for chickens that I can find on NOAH. A chicken is a food producing animal.

From RCVS:

4.16 If there is no medicine authorised in the UK for a condition affecting a non-food-producing species, the veterinary surgeon responsible for treating the animal(s) may, in particular to avoid unacceptable suffering, treat the animal(s) in accordance with the following sequence:

a veterinary medicine authorised in the UK for use in another animal species or for a different condition in the same species; or, if there is no such product: Eprinomectin is an authorised UK medicine in another animal species
either:
1. a medicine authorised in the UK for human use; or
2. in accordance with an import certificate (see the guidance note issued by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate [VMD]), a medicine authorised for veterinary use in another Member State; or, if there is no such product:
a medicine prepared extemporaneously by a veterinary surgeon, a pharmacist or a person holding an appropriate manufacturer’s authorisation, as prescribed by the veterinary surgeon responsible for treating the animal

4.21 If there is no medicine authorised in the UK for a condition affecting a food-producing species, the veterinary surgeon responsible for treating the animal(s) may use the cascade options as set out in paragraphs 4.16 above, except that the following additional conditions apply:

the treatment in any particular case is restricted to animals on a single holding; Check
any medicine imported from another Member State (option b(ii)) must be authorised for use in a food-producing species in the other Member State;
the pharmacologically active substances contained in the medicine must be listed in the table in the Annex to Regulation (EU) No. 37/2010 (this table replaces Annexes I, II or III of Council Regulation (EEC) 2377/90); It is
the veterinary surgeon responsible for prescribing the medicine must specify an appropriate withdrawal period; From consulting with a vet specialising in poultry work and taking their advice - I have
the veterinary surgeon responsible for prescribing the medicine must keep specified records. I do

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

bob lehner — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:18:11 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It's more complicated than that.[/quote]

Hmm - yes it is .

If you look at the vmd Guidance Notes on the Cascade - for food producing animals it says:

'the pharmacologically active substances contained in the medicine must be listed in the Table of Allowed Substances in Commission Regulation EU No 37/2010 – Maximum Residue Limits (MRLs) available at http://ec.europa.eu/health/files/eudralex/vol-5/reg_2010_37/reg_2010_37_en.pdf'

I f you look up Ivermectin on that table it is only listed with residues for mammalian food producing species - and no mention of birds.

I would therefore conclude that Ivermectin cannot be used in food producing birds under the cascade.

Perhaps the Vet Times article I mentioned above is not in fact correct ?

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

james herriot lied — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 08:10:12 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

You can't use Xeno in a food producing animal - so would have to dump eggs forever:

We use spot on Eprinex as it is licensed for use in food producing animals.

[/quote]

Michael, Michael, Michael.

A couple of weeks ago, you ranted freely about slippery slopes when I suggested that we used a particular drug in an indicated species by a slightly different (but still effective and very useful) route.

Now, I see you're using a drug in a non-indicated species - in this case, despite explicit data sheet instructions not to use it in species other than cattle - with the justification that, in your own -unsupported - opinion, the eggs will be safe to eat. You're using an unlicensed drug, in a species actively excluded by the data sheet, for reasons of commercial gain. Who was it that was opining about it not being reasonable to expect farmers to follow data sheet recommendations, if we can't do it ourselves?

Tut, tut, Michael: one step forwards and I fear it's a slippery slope; one step back and you may fall into the Pit of Hypocrisy.

One part ivermectin to nine parts propylene glycol, dabbed on, works pretty well. Xeno has never seemed to work for me, in any species.

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 23:43:51 GMT

Data sheet says:

Not authorised for use in birds producing eggs for human consumption.

Do not administer to layer replacement birds within 14 days of coming into lay.

Interpret that how you will

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Suzanne Kelly — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 23:39:42 GMT

I thought there was no longer any type of Baytril licensed for laying hens?

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 22:12:48 GMT

It's more complicated than that. The VMD refer to 'a medicine' rather than an active ingredient. Remember the VDS having a claim a few years ago because someone used Baytril oral 2.5% in a chicken and had to throw eggs away forever because the datasheet says so? If they had dispensed the poultry 10% all would be fine. Same ingredient - very different outcome.

Baytril oral 2.5% says:

Not for use in poultry (chickens and turkeys).

Baytril oral 10% is licensed for chickens with suitable meat and egg withholds.

You couldn't make this up..............

(the specific product needs to be licensed in food producing animals, not just the active ingredient).

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

bob lehner — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 21:52:13 GMT

Article in Veterianry Times within the last few weeks - 'Review of common parasite control in backyard poultry' by William Garton of the Minster Veterinary Practice.

Says ivermectin is used for ecto- and endo-parasite control under the cascade with 7 day withdrawal for eggs and 28 days for meat.

Re: Ivermectin use in chickens

tess — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 21:43:32 GMT

Another vote for diatomaceous earth here.

I have a real issue with the use of non licenced drugs in laying birds. Many diseases are husbandry related and I would explore that with the owner.