dental xrays

RE: dental xrays

Beats — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:25:20 GMT

Hi Aisling, just found this thread.

Sounds like you did what I'm trying to do.

How did this work out for you?

Any tips/pitfalls?

(I've jsut regestered with KentExpress :-) )

Dave

Re: dental xrays

Nicola Lawlor — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:41:35 GMT

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]Aisling I think I've a box of those self developing films lying around somewhere. They're a size 2 and should be grand for cats' mouths. The only thing is they're at least 4 years old so maybe no good. We moved building about a year ago and these may have been left behind in the old building. Anyhow if I can find them and they work you're welcome to them. Re technique- you'll need to use parallel and bisecting angle techniques. YouTube "cat dental xray" and there's loads of videos.

[/quote]

We bought some of these to play with in the early trial days before moving quickly on to digital. We had a computer glitch a few months back and got the film out and it was too poor to get anything useful quality from as it had deteriorated (or the chemicals had)

Re: dental xrays

Rob Davis — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:18:18 GMT

Good luck!

Re: dental xrays

Aisling McGrath — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:52:11 GMT

Order placed for fixer, developer, and films!

Now to sort out some jam jars! :)

Re: dental xrays

Anthony Todd — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:00:34 GMT

You can get test Xray strips from Velopex which gives you accurate information about your chemicals and saved a "service" for the machine many times....

That's if you are unfortunate enough still to be using wet chemicals....

AFAIK developer deteriorates in air so a screw top jam jar or a tupperware sealed lid container would work well. Also have the smallest amount of developer in use so that you don't have a big container of dark brown expired developer and pay to get the automatic processor "serviced"

Gee, I wish digital processing had been around back in the day!!! almost ALL the crap Xrays were down to poor processing!!

We had one of the first Acoma portable units in the UK, great and compact.

I was away and got a panic call from the vet to say the X-ray was playing up and wouldn't work.

I said to call the guy who could sort it out [no service agents in UK yet]

He came and, they said, dismantled the unit, all over the prep table to say that the output trannie had failed.

I said, via international phone calls to get the brochure from upstairs and get ACOMA to send us a new output transformer from Japan, air freight etc. etc.

Heard nothing.

Came back "What happened with the Xray, I'll bet it cost a fortune?"

Strained silence then, twitching and looking at the floor, "It's all OK, we changed the developer"

Re: dental xrays

Rob Davis — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:46:47 GMT

Should be compatible with any films. We do have a red light in the dark room, but if you don't, it would be fairly easy to do in the dark - just do a couple in the light first so you know what they look like. Inside the plastic cover there is a cardboard sheath and a piece of foil. I have on a couple of occasions had somebody process either the foil or the cardboard rather than the film...

Re: dental xrays

Aisling McGrath — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:38:12 GMT

Thanks for the tips! The kodak ones seem very reasonably priced, and I assume they are compatible with the agfa films?

When you say you use jam jars in the dark room - are you doing everything totally in the dark? When I was student in mixed practice, we developed the xrays in absolute darkness, as the vet just knew where everything was, and the red bulb had just never gotten round to being replaced!

Re: dental xrays

Rob Davis — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:31:08 GMT

PS Used chemicals need to be disposed of correctly not tipped down the sink! We have a larger jerry can type container for developer and fixer and they are collected as necessary.

Re: dental xrays

Rob Davis — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:29:31 GMT

Personally I use Kodak rapid access chemicals

15seconds in developer, 20 seconds in fixer, 20 seconds rinsing in water - all done in less than a minute. I use jam jars in the dark room (very high tech!).

The developer will turn from clear to dark brown over a period of a few days once exposed to air. It still works fine when it's brown for a period (depending on how it's kept and how many films you are processing). I expose a test film to light and process before I use it each time, and replace the chemicals as necessary. The developer seems to deteriorate more slowly if kept in the fridge once opened, though it needs to be upto room temperature before using (if it's still cold I just keep the film in the developer for 3-4 extra seconds, not particularly scientific but seems to work).

Re: dental xrays

Aisling McGrath — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:15:07 GMT

So with the developer concentrate, I'm assuming there will be instructions on it on how to dilute it etc.

And once the bottles are open, how long are they usable for? LIke if I pour a small amount into a pot to use for the rads, and keep the main container sealed, is that good for several months? Or not?

We have a dark room, that's currently only used for storage, so will I just need to have a red light in there and im all good?

So just to double check I'm ordering the right things:

DEHP X-Ray Fixer Ready To Use 2X5Ltr
(9792163)

DEHP (9792163)

1 x £11.99

£11.99

DEHP X-Ray Developer Conc - Manual Process 500ml
(9791862)

DEHP (97-91862)

1 x £2.39
8 x £2.29

£2.39

Agfa Dentus M2 Comfort Film Child 2x3cm 100pk
(60018)

Agfa Gevaert (65031124 100/PK)

1 x £30.09
On Offer

£30.09

Re: dental xrays

Suzanne Kelly — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:48:29 GMT

Aisling I think I've a box of those self developing films lying around somewhere. They're a size 2 and should be grand for cats' mouths. The only thing is they're at least 4 years old so maybe no good. We moved building about a year ago and these may have been left behind in the old building. Anyhow if I can find them and they work you're welcome to them. Re technique- you'll need to use parallel and bisecting angle techniques. YouTube "cat dental xray" and there's loads of videos.

Re: dental xrays

Laurence Webb — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:32:28 GMT

The X-ray films come in individual plastic envelopes containing so don't need any protecting. When you develop them you rip open the envelope then dunk the film in the chemicals for the correct time - we used normal chemicals for the automatic developer which took just under a minute each. We used to attach little clips to each film so you didn't lose it in the chemicals.

Unless you want to use size 4 plates the cost per plate is pence each so well worth it for a minimal investment. If you get on well then consider a dental generator and digital in the future.

Re: dental xrays

Aisling McGrath — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:44:47 GMT

My own dentist is all digital, no old fashioned films lying around! So I'm going to buy some films, and some developer/fixer. Must get those DI lectures out and review the manual processing details! A few more questions. So cat is under GA. On some boxes to decrease film focal distance. So do I just put the film in the mouth? like does it need to be protected with anything? We have the bsava manual to dentistry in the practice, I haven't actually looked in the xray yet, but I'm hopeful it should be useful for advice on actually taking and interpreting the rads?

Re: dental xrays

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:34:39 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]I have to go to my own dentist this afternoon, so I'll see what they can give me! lol![/quote]

If you've got good relations with them they might even offer to process the exposed films? I bet they've gone digital though.

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]If you just let me know what you use and where you source it from, and I can see if I can order some in?[/quote]

Kent Express:

https://www.kentexpress.co.uk/gb-en/kent/default.aspx?did=kent

You'll need to create an account in order to log in and order, but it's no trouble.

I see that Agfa child periapical (2x3cm) film is on offer at £30.09 for 100.

DEHP developer conc is £2.39

Ditto fixer is also £2.39 but currently out of stock. You could buy ready-to-use at £12.

Kodak developer and fixer are 6.39 each. or "rapid access" (15 seconds in each chemical) are 4.29 each.

For self-developing see Xray film Eco 30. £45 for 50

Re: dental xrays

Rob Davis — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:14:25 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]My concern is the film focal distance (that's the distance between the xray machine and the plate yes?) - our digital unit, the table slides forward/backward and also side to side, but the table does not raise.... so I cannot decrease the film focal distance???[/quote]

I have, in the dim and distant past, overcome this issue by placing the patient on a pile of box files.... where there is a will.....

I buy dental films from our wholesaler (Henry Schien), but you can buy them in all sorts of places. Even Amazon seem to sell it!

Re: dental xrays

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:05:51 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

When I win the lottery I'm going to buy a hand-held unit like the one above.

[/quote]

Ooh Niall do you promise?!

Re: dental xrays

Aisling McGrath — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:17:55 GMT

If you just let me know what you use and where you source it from, and I can see if I can order some in?

I am not sure we can refer it, the owner was very reluctant to pay for the initial procedure, and she hasn't asked yet about the cost of repeat GA/ rads, and I'm pretty sure we're going to have to heavily discount it....

I have to go to my own dentist this afternoon, so I'll see what they can give me! lol!

Re: dental xrays

Kate Richardson — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:04:15 GMT

I'd be happy to send you some film, developer etc more tricky but I can let you know what we use if that would help. Or speak to a local practice? Would the owners consider referral to another practice who have dental xray facilities- if you have good relations with another practice?

Re: dental xrays

Aisling McGrath — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 08:49:44 GMT

Thanks to everyone for all your input.

The long term plan is definitely dental xray unit, but that won't be happening for quite some time yet!

So do you think my local friendly dentist would just give me some dental film? Or even sell them to me? Or what supplier could I buy a small amount from?

Self developing film does sound easiest, because then I wouldn't need to get/use any developer/fixer. Where does one purchase self developing film? We use NVS as our normal supplier.

My concern is the film focal distance (that's the distance between the xray machine and the plate yes?) - our digital unit, the table slides forward/backward and also side to side, but the table does not raise.... so I cannot decrease the film focal distance???

Any advice appreciated!

Re: dental xrays

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 23:02:16 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"] though I agreed they do look cool and would make me feel like Dan Dare.[/quote]

After a couple of years you'd have forearms like Popeye, too.

Re: dental xrays

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 22:59:39 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

There was a safety issue with the handheld units in the Vet Record:

https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/medical-device-alert-tianjie-dental-falcon-portable-x-ray-unit-and-other-non-ce-marked-dental-x-ray-units-lacks-sufficient-shielding-in-the-x-ray-tube

[/quote]

Not all handheld units. Just these nasty Chinese non-CE-marked ones you can find on ebay.

The Nomad that Niall illustrated, and the even more compact one iM3 sell, are perfectly safe and approved by the whatever-it-is board.

The designer of the Nomad said they had great trouble getting it approved because the board just couldn't believe such a thing could be shielded enough. But it is.

Re: dental xrays

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 20:45:30 GMT

There was a safety issue with the handheld units in the Vet Record:

https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/medical-device-alert-tianjie-dental-falcon-portable-x-ray-unit-and-other-non-ce-marked-dental-x-ray-units-lacks-sufficient-shielding-in-the-x-ray-tube

Re: dental xrays

Rob Davis — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:58:40 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

Set phasers to stun!

We've got a set of dental plates which can be loaded into a special holder which then sits inside a normal cassette so they can be processed in the same way full size films are. Very ingenious and it seems to work well, we use it with a standard general purpose unit and there are limitations.

When I win the lottery I'm going to buy a hand-held unit like the one above. When I think of the size of some of the old units I've used in the past it's staggering how much can be squeezed into one small package!

Cheers,

Niall

[/quote]

I can't believe these hand held ones are acceptable to the H&S bods, though I agreed they do look cool and would make me feel like Dan Dare.

Re: dental xrays

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:46:23 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]When I win the lottery I'm going to buy a hand-held unit like the one above. [/quote]

Yeah....

They have advantages but also disadvantages. I'd still prefer a unit on a mechanical holder of some sort so that I can just position it (ideally with one finger!) and then it's there. Moreover, if you have a hand-held one you have to put it down somewhere.... and the true veterinary dentist is always short of horizontal surfaces.......

Re: dental xrays

Niall Taylor — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:37:53 GMT

Set phasers to stun!

Cheers,

Niall