Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Rob Loxley — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 13:00:04 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]I'd never really considered there was any debate...[/quote]

no, indeed; take from whichever site you're happy with that gives you the sample you need?

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 10:07:35 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]

In rabbits I often prefer to put catheters in the cephalic vein, am I the only one?

[/quote]No, I find it easy but just can't cope with rabbit ear veins.

[/quote]

I don't usually have a problem getting the marginal ear vein in rabbits for iv injection or catheterising. I use a 26g catheter. Getting a blood sample though I find really tricky and usually have to sedate.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Rob Davis — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 08:56:17 GMT

[quote user="listhestar"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] rabbit's lateral ear vein - they inevitably suddenly jump, I miss or it blows.[/quote]

EMLA cream is your friend, failing that one squirt of intubeaze on the ear does the trick, no jumping as they can't feel it :)

[/quote]

+1 for EMLA. Make sure you are patient and give it long enough to work (only takes a couple of minutes), but makes a huge difference.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 18:11:29 GMT

Personally I find rabbit cephalic veins awkward the leg is often so short. I have used it occasionally for iv injections. Mind I generally use only a purple catheter in rabbits.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 15:28:36 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]No, I find it easy but just can't cope with rabbit ear veins.[/quote]

It is not for difficulty, it is because yellow catheters are to easy to clott and kink. So I prefer to put a blue catheter in the cephalic, to a yellow in the ear.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:48:35 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Good Lord, pass the smelling salts - did I read that correctly....?[/quote] So surprised your emoticons went haywire? Dont worry just a bit of false modesty. Normal service will be resumed shortly.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

listhestar — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:30:37 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] rabbit's lateral ear vein - they inevitably suddenly jump, I miss or it blows.[/quote]

EMLA cream is your friend, failing that one squirt of intubeaze on the ear does the trick, no jumping as they can't feel it :)

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

bob lehner — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:21:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I'm totally useless[/quote]

Good Lord, pass the smelling salts - did I read that correctly....? " />

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 13:16:58 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]

In rabbits I often prefer to put catheters in the cephalic vein, am I the only one?

[/quote]No, I find it easy but just can't cope with rabbit ear veins.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 11:21:20 GMT

[quote user="Tom Ward"]

Jugular most of the time. How do you get a decent sample from a cat's cephalic? I usually get an initial flash of about 0.2ml and then nothing. What am I doing wrong?

[/quote]

You're pulling too hard, release negative pressure on the plunger for a few moments to let the vein fill back up :)

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 11:15:17 GMT

In rabbits I often prefer to put catheters in the cephalic vein, am I the only one?

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:12:03 GMT

[quote user="listhestar"]I tend to use jugular for rabbits as well to save cephalic and lateral ear veins for cannula.[/quote]Now there's a whole new direction for this thread to go: I may be the dog's dangly bits at getting samples from cat's cephalic veins but I'm totally useless at doing anything with a rabbit's lateral ear vein - they inevitably suddenly jump, I miss or it blows.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

listhestar — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:03:24 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]Which site is your default for taking a blood sample? I'd never really considered there was any debate...[/quote]

As someone previously said jugular unless clotting issues, head injury or IOP worries. I just find it quicker, a pathologist told me he prefers green needle and large vein as reduces shear injury to the cells. However in a very aggressive cat I will use medial saphenous as very prominent vein and in angry cats, decent blood pressure. I tend to use jugular for rabbits as well to save cephalic and lateral ear veins for cannula.

Lisa

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:57:11 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

I can't really 'get' this explanation - why would the vein collapse in one dimension but not in another?

IMHO the main problem I see with people trying and failing to draw blood from the cephalic is excessive negative pressure making the vein collapse. And sometimes the person raising the vein is too vigorous and reduces arterial flow - it can help if they sometimes just slightly reduce the squeeze to allow a bit more blood downstream.

[/quote]I agree and not found the angle of the needle bevel to be consistent, I will rotate it sometimes if the flow isn't good after a few seconds. And I also think that sometimes the nurses are over-vigorous in their vein raising and sometimes tell them that they don't have to squeeze the life out of it. Sometimes them pulsing their pressure helps. Some nurses are better at raising veins that others and it is very difficult to transfer your feeling into their hands!

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:29:26 GMT

Another who's good at cephalics (ought to be after 35 years practice) hopeless at jugulars (clumsy as a student trying for the 1st time)

Wynne

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Niall Taylor — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:20:31 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"] If you rotate, the vein can't collapse down onto the opening of the needle...[/quote]

I can't really 'get' this explanation - why would the vein collapse in one dimension but not in another?

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Nicola Cole — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 21:57:15 GMT

For cephalic in cats I've always gone in normally, then after first flash slightly angled syringe barrel to skin (so needle bevel becomes angled to vein)-never realised why it works but seems to fit with the above 2 answers so now I have an explanation why-thanks!

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:46:07 GMT

[quote user="Tom Ward"]

Jugular most of the time. How do you get a decent sample from a cat's cephalic? I usually get an initial flash of about 0.2ml and then nothing. What am I doing wrong?

[/quote] Rotate the needle 180 degrees, once you enter the vein. If you have the pointy bit of the needle down as most people do when you enter a vein, the vein collapses on the needle when you've emptied it of blood. If you rotate, the vein can't collapse down onto the opening of the needle. Sounds theoretical but I find it works really well Neil

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:26:31 GMT

[quote user="Tom Ward"]How do you get a decent sample from a cat's cephalic? I usually get an initial flash of about 0.2ml and then nothing. What am I doing wrong?[/quote]Don't know what you're doing wrong but I've taken samples from 4 cats today from the cephalic vein on the consult room table and filled a 2ml syringe within 30 seconds so enough for full biochem, CBC & T4 without it clotting.

Important points are of course to have a good nurse who can restrain the cat calmly but firmly and raise the vein properly. Don't panic when the first flash back is 0.2ml then it stops, be patient, aim the needle slightly ventrally, don't pull too hard on the plunger, pulse the negative pressure if its not flowing freely to start, squeezing the paw with the palm of your hand that's holding the foot sometimes helps, and you will find that just as you are about to give up the blood flows. It doesn't always work but in 90% of cases if the cat is calm and has allowed inital venipuncture then I have no problem.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Niall Taylor — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:16:56 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]... I have also on occasion been a little irritated with someone taking a preop jugular blood sample when I am going to do a thyroidectomy... [/quote]

Very good point, I've also had that problem!

Niall

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Kate Richardson — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:05:57 GMT

yes some nurses like to grip the cat so tightly and force the head up, less is definitely more in a lot of cats.

I'm a jugular girl. But happy to use cephalic if the situation calls for it.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:02:16 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]

I often find awkward cats dislike the restraint for jugular as well.

[/quote]

I find for a lot of cats that object to jugular blood sampling that less restraint is the answer, just getting the nurse to hold the head up, but not hold the front legs or body, and a lot of fractious cats will let you clip and take blood.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Catriona MacIntyre — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 22:13:41 GMT

Cephalic 99% of the time in small animals - possibly because I have spent a large chunk of my career without having someone else competent to hold the animal for me. If there is someone to help with restraint, I'm maybe more likely to use the jugular in cats and tiny dogs.

I don't remember being taught much about whether to choose jugular or cephalic. I would like to try the medial saphenous for cats some time, but haven't done it yet. Vet Times recently had an article about a different technique for jugular sampling in cats:

http://www.vetsonline.com/publications/veterinary-times/archives/n-45-06/blood-sampling-in-feline-patientsa-a-alternative-handling-technique.html

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 20:10:13 GMT

I am another cephalic user I tend to use the jugular only if I am going to want a large sample or know I am likely to want to place a drip later. I often find awkward cats dislike the restraint for jugular as well. There are always the exceptions of course! However I have also on occasion been a little irritated with someone taking a preop jugular blood sample when I am going to do a thyroidectomy I would rather they took that from the leg rather than potentially bruising my op site.

On the topic of glucose readings I always use an insulin syringe from the cephalic. For some reason I have a really poor record for getting enough blood from the ear prick. I don't know what I do wrong and can end up sticking the poor animal several times so prefer to just use a needle and get it done.

Re: Jugular vs Cephalic blood sampling

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 17:21:34 GMT

[quote user="Tom Ward"]

Jugular most of the time. How do you get a decent sample from a cat's cephalic? I usually get an initial flash of about 0.2ml and then nothing. What am I doing wrong?

[/quote]

Trying to collect blood from a cephalic vein..................