Breeds not to neuter before first season

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 01:07:24 GMT

Agreed David about the usefulness of this IM GA for spays. We did them in the back of the pickup in Mozambican villages with this GA. We used to have diazepam ready to give rectally if they were looking crampy or preseizuring (we used injectable diazepam rectally).

Later in the UK when I worked in a practice without inhalation anaesthesia we used the same and never lost a dog, not even with pyo's or caesars.

Mariette

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

David Mills — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 19:53:35 GMT

IM GA has a lot to recommend it in dogs, especially pups. Singularly unimpressed with using acp/bupe then propofol - they wriggle a lot, which stresses them before GA, making induction more difficult/unpredictable. We do seem wedded as a profession to IV induction in dogs c.f. cats, always wondered why. On a recent trip to Africa we did almost all IM in adults and youngsters. Very smooth surgeries and recoveries. I'd normally give the dom/opioid first then ket about 10m after, as the latter does sting a bit in some, but whatever works. Same doses as stated.

Pre-pubescent surgery is a breeze as well - for surgeon, animal and client. We charge much less for the procedure than in an adult, and tie it in with vaccs/chipping, seems to be well received overall. There's also the huge benefit of getting the status breeds - Akitas, Sharpeis, Huskies, Pitts - done early whilst they're still relatively nice dogs - saves wrestling with a snarling 12-18m old beast and avoids owners getting tempted to make a quick buck from them later on.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Gerry Henry — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 19:18:16 GMT

Comfortan 0.2mls I/m for pups weighing around 3kgs; half an hour later ket 0.05mls/kg bw and dom 0.04mls/kg bw in same syringe im; tube and maintain on 1%. I started using this in the pups because the bup/propofol just wasn't giving good analgesia, then we started using it in all our dogs, not one anaesthetic death in six years, smooth anaesthetic, good recovery; only probs are occasional (maybe one in 50) mild seizure like episode post induction and occasional apnoea, just breath for them until they start for themselves.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Andrew Mellor — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:45:21 GMT

wow which my B****dy Chihuahua breeders would do that ! - neuter presale I mean, out of interest do you use same protocol on older spays ? could you let me know dose rates etc for ket/dom.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Gerry Henry — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:35:40 GMT

Breeder; only one on my books; generally I hate them but this woman is really nice and - mirabile dictu - honest and ethical; been doing them for years hence the hundreds; they neuter the pups prior to sale, part of the labradoodle contract; I spoke to the College before I started doing them and nobody seemed to mind; initially I had real reservations but now none at all; we use a comfortan followed by ket/dom combination and NSAID, tube and maintain on 1% iso; the analgesia is superb, they come round two or three minutes after stopping the iso, recovery is lovely and then they get up and start yelling for food, which they get, eat and go to sleep.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Andrew Mellor — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:29:34 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

We do hundreds (literally) of labradoodle pups at 8 wks;

[/quote]

Why so young? Why so many?

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Gerry Henry — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:26:42 GMT

We do hundreds (literally) of labradoodle pups at 8 wks; once you've mastered the technique of finding the uterus (by sight not touch) its very straightforward; I use bipolars for suspensory ligaments and uterine horns; never seen the point of going as far as the cervix personally; client feedback via breeder is good and to date I haven't seen/heard of one case of incontinence. The recovery of young pups post procedure is astonishing, up and howling for food in less than an hour.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 16:13:26 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]when a young vet student called Michael Woodhouse came to see practice with me[/quote]

2004-2006 time.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Wren — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:26:07 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]

Sounds like common sense. Hard when the time comes but we are so lucky to be able to make that decision once quality of life has gone. Wish I could do the same for my mum!

[/quote]

It's a privilege, isn't it?

I was just thinking how long I've had her, and it must be a long time as I definitely remember having them both when a young vet student called Michael Woodhouse came to see practice with me

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Andrew Mellor — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:02:45 GMT

Sounds like common sense. Hard when the time comes but we are so lucky to be able to make that decision once quality of life has gone. Wish I could do the same for my mum!

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Wren — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:55:36 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]

so sorry to hear this , will you amputate? we all expect it will be too late to stop the cancer , but at least the pain is gone. I had a patient with osteosarc in femur with pathological fracture 12 year old dog amputated , biopsy result 90% mitotic figures dog lived 3.5 years without any problems. Sometimes you can just get lucky if you get in there quick.

Andrew

[/quote]

Thanks for the concern. No, I don't think I will. She's a grand old dog and at 11 (I think!) I doubt she'd have a lot of time left even without the osteosarc. I might think differently were she 8 or 9. Plus, for various reasons, it took us a while to find it so I think it would probably be too late to be useful in terms of metastases. She's happy enough, on lots of pain relief and will go the minute she starts to look miserable. She is pretty much joined at the hip to our 17yo terrier who is also very much on borrowed time and I think they will both probably end their days together as they have been inseparable for the last 11 years. One of the great benefits of being a dog is that you don't know you have cancer. She has no worries.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Andrew Mellor — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:29:29 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]

I tend to see osteosarc in rotties, gsd and greyhounds cannot remember the last other breed I saw one in, what do other people see regularly, I presume there may be a degree of genetics involved too.

[/quote]

How about an 11yo unspeyed Lab (mine)? No sign of mammary tumours. Have chosen not to biosy her (presumptive) osteosarc, but have had small animal colleagues and ortho specialists look at rads and all agree that the diagnosis is pretty conclusive from appearance.

[/quote]

Andrew

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:25:14 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

My sympathy as well. Spoil her rotten for the time remainimg.

Wynne

[/quote]That is a very anthropomorphic response and may not serve the situation well. Such action is for the benefit of the owner not the dog which doesn't know its ill and may misinterpret the owner's actions. Best to just keep things the same and savour what time you have left for yourself.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 13:17:54 GMT

My sympathy as well. Spoil her rotten for the time remainimg.

Wynne

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 11:52:48 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]

I tend to see osteosarc in rotties, gsd and greyhounds cannot remember the last other breed I saw one in, what do other people see regularly, I presume there may be a degree of genetics involved too.

[/quote]

Sorry to hear this, Wren. I hope she is doing (as) OK (as can be expected)

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:55:08 GMT

[quote user="Tim Charlesworth"] It is, however, nothing to do with if/how you handle the uterus during the surgery.[/quote]Probably right but it had occurred to me that a ham fisted surgeon tugging on the juvenile vagina and possibly traumatising the nerve supply to the bladder/ureter could cause issues. This was based on me seeing a higher proportion of incontinence in bitches spayed by other vets (I am of course the perfect surgeon)!!! Seems a logical but possibly anatomically unsound argument.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Tim Charlesworth — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:44:05 GMT

All the date supports what you're saying ie there is no increased risk of incontinence spaying dogs before their first season. It is, however, nothing to do with if/how you handle the uterus during the surgery. The predisposed breeds are (as you would expect) at increased risk of developing incontinence but this risk is probably the same whenever you spay them. If a dog had an infantile vulva then I would delay spaying in the hope that the dog would fully mature after a first season and that this would decrease the risk of USMI but otherwise I think prepubertal spaying is the sensible way forward. Large/giant breeds I would delay until >12mths due to the Osteosarc risk.

The interesting dogs are the ones who have season-associated incontinence from a young age as these will be incontinent when they are spayed - should we spay these at all? We usually argue that the protective effect versus mammary cancer greatly outweighs the risk of postop incontinence but when you know that they will be incontinent - is it reasonable to not spay?

Just opening up the discussion...

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:34:52 GMT

[quote user="Tim Charlesworth"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

. Indeed I am convinced that if there is any link to incontinence it is due to surgical skill handling a fragile juvenile uterus rather than anything hormonal.

[/quote]

But if this was the case wouldn't you expect a decreased rate of incontinence following ovariectomy than when full OHE performed (which there isn't)?

[/quote] I think that the answer to that depends upon what age you'd expect to see incontinence develop and at what point you would say this is no longer because the bitch was spayed young and it is just old age. I would think this means seeing them at 1-3 years old. Personally I just do not see urinary incontinence in neutered bitches I've spayed until they are way past middle age and I've been routinely spaying pre-first oestrus for at least 10 years.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 22:10:01 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]At what stage do people say no to spaying an overweight patient?[/quote]

Personally I wouldn't postpone surgery for that reason alone. I've spayed labs with maybe an inch or more of sub cut fat.

We've debated this around in circles in the practice. We've come to the view we started with - the balance of all risks seems to come down as 3 months after the first season. If for some reason a season is intolerable (live with male dog, lives in house etc) than will do pre first season. I'll do them early mated. Pretty much any time you want.

My own bitch will be spayed after her first season. The reason is I don't want her bleeding all over the house - I suspect that is the reason for most owners too. We can kid ourselves its for various health reasons, but generally it's done for owner convenience in my experience.

Throws a new ethical stance on it though............

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Tom Ward — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 18:27:26 GMT

[quote user="Matt Hilary"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

This balance of pros and cons needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.

[/quote]

Not a personal criticism obviously but I can't be the only person to find this phrase frustrating. In the majority of cases you're dealing with asymptomatic dogs - what's there to assess?

[/quote]

Presumably meaning a 'client by client' basis...

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Anthony Todd — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:50:29 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Indeed I am convinced that if there is any link to incontinence it is due to surgical skill handling a fragile juvenile uterus rather than anything hormonal.[/quote]

Nonsense

[dying to use that response ever since it was done to me, and I was right in my case!]

If that was true why would incontinence be stopped with hormones etc.?

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Tim Charlesworth — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 13:22:16 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

. Indeed I am convinced that if there is any link to incontinence it is due to surgical skill handling a fragile juvenile uterus rather than anything hormonal.

[/quote]

But if this was the case wouldn't you expect a decreased rate of incontinence following ovariectomy than when full OHE performed (which there isn't)?

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 11:42:36 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Probably just lost a client this morning. 10mth old puppy but overweight.

At what stage do people say no to spaying an overweight patient?

[/quote]What sort of owner allows a puppy to be so obese a competent vet consider's it a poor surgical risk? I'd say you're better off without them. Just being curious of course but what size were the owners? Owner and pet obesity usually go hand in hand.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:44:11 GMT

I saw a link on Facebook warning about the horrors of early neutering, and in fact neutering in general. I can see a backlash coming in the same way as vaccination, ie ill informed scaremongering, vets are only interested in the money etc.

Re: Breeds not to neuter before first season

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 09:41:38 GMT

Cheer up. Owners like that are the ones who will (down the line) have you doubting your diagnosis, because the animal hasn't got better - because they haven't been giving it it's medication.

Wynne