charging for dental radiography

Re: charging for dental radiography

bob lehner — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:36:54 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]All the time in farm practice. Should I be struck off for potting the baby lamb's legs with no radiography?[/quote]

No of course not - I should have been more accurate and specified 'in SA practice'.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:08:49 GMT

Cross ref to the thread on milk prices - for animalwelfare to improve to acceptable levels, it's necessary for the price of all animal-based foods to rise dramatically to 4 or 5 times current levels. Wishful thinking, I know,but it would be nice.

Wynne

Re: charging for dental radiography

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 23:53:30 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Who these days would attempt to repair a fractured bone without prior X-rays ? [/quote]

All the time in farm practice. Should I be struck off for potting the baby lamb's legs with no radiography? Going to have to knock them all over the head, because we charge more for radiography than that lamb is ever going to be worth.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:20:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] We do have a few of practices that do a dental for a fiver[/quote]

Or rather, do sweet FA and charge a fiver for it?

Re: charging for dental radiography

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:15:47 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

With regard to dental radiographs - speaking as someone with little interest, and even fewer skills, in dentistry I do absolutely applaud the increasing use of proper dental radiographs in SA practice.

I really do think SA dentistry is an area where as a profession we have little cause for self-satisfaction in the main (obviously with some notable exceptions). I'm told that in human dentistry extracting a tooth without prior rads would be a striking off offence. Yet many (most?) of us merrily attempt extractions without even knowing how many (or indeed if any) roots are present. On the basis of 'first do no harm' I wonder whether some of us should really be doing dentistry, beyond the very basics, at all. Who these days would attempt to repair a fractured bone without prior X-rays ?

I bet there will be increasing litigation against vets who attempt more complex dentistry without prior x-rays in coming years.

Roll on the time when it becomes a case of professional negligence not to have done so.

[/quote]

And it does not have to make the cost "prohibitive" either.

"Yark out the bad 'uns" for £150 or do a proper job for £200..... inc radiography, full exam of every tooth, subgingival PBUD, etc. As a client, which would you choose?

Re: charging for dental radiography

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 12:47:57 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]I bet there will be increasing litigation against vets who attempt more complex dentistry without prior x-rays in coming years. [/quote]And as a result there will be even more animals with awful neglected mouths! How many of those pet's that 'have never needed to go to vet in their life' and/or the owner says 'well he's still eating' when they are presented with a mouth full of festering periodontal disease would pay several hundred pounds when it is all you can do to get them in for a scale and pull the rotten teeth for £150? More likely litigation for leaving them to stew because they won't pay the extra.

Re: charging for dental radiography

bob lehner — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:19:29 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]the speaker asked us to guess how long Tesco would expect before they recouped the cost of building up a new hypermarket. Most of us threw out figures like 5 years even up to 10. The answer is 9 months![/quote]

Hmm - perhaps not currently the best business model to follow - 6 O'Clock news last night - feature on how they are now closing superstores and backing out of new developments that were in the pipe-line. How the mighty are fallen.

I bet there will be increasing litigation against vets who attempt more complex dentistry without prior x-rays in coming years.

Roll on the time when it becomes a case of professional negligence not to have done so.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 16:47:37 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'd suggest writing the cost off over five years:[/quote]I'm not going to enter the debate over costing dental X-rays as I don't have a dental X-ray machine, but I do think we are guilty of undercharging for X-rays generally even when just cost of the equipment, consumables and disposable of chemicals is considered not to mention staffing costs, the cost of a room and dark room if you're still doing wet chemistry. The skill of interpreting the results cannot be underestimated and is usually undercharged.

However none of that is the point of my post. I went to a practice management conference last year which by coincidence was running alongside a dentistry conference (its was SPVS Snowscene) and the speaker asked us to guess how long Tesco would expect before they recouped the cost of building up a new hypermarket. Most of us threw out figures like 5 years even up to 10. The answer is 9 months! It made me realise that we are nearly always underselling ourselves - why shouldn't we expect to make enough to pay off our investment in less than 5 years?

Re: charging for dental radiography

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 12:32:40 GMT

How are the £5 dentals anaesthetised_ a mallet?

Wynne

Re: charging for dental radiography

Bob Russell — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 10:31:04 GMT

We don't charge as much but the equipment is paid for. Owners don't bat an eyelid when X-rays are discussed. We do have a few of practices that do a dental for a fiver if owners are willing to get in the car and drive a bit.

Oddly enough we don't get many people booking in for dentals when they are phoning round for bargains!

£7 per image or £30 for full mouth X-rays.

Big digital X-ray system was not paying for itself (actually draining the pockets) so we did a big rethink. Basic set up fee now more than covers the costs and the rest is based on time.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Suzanne Kelly — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 01:17:58 GMT

We've a DR system size 2 plates. €15 for the first one €10 for subsequent. You'll make €€€ or £££ in the UK(!) on the extra work you'll diagnose with it so don't worry too much about charging for the actual imaging. I've never had and owner complain about the costs of the radiographs. I usually go through them with the owner at the post op check.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:41:09 GMT

The glory of digital radiography is that you don't have to count up the number of pictures you took and charge accordingly. In my "full-size" radiography I have a flat charge for diagnostic radiography, irrespective of the number of pictures taken, for one problem; and x amount again for each problem or body division..... for instance, hips-and-full-length-of-spine would be charged as one; if the dog also had a cough and we wanted thoracic radiographs, that would be an extra fee.

In my dentistry, nowadays, the radiography charge is built in to the standard fee, and I reduce it by an appropriate amount if it happens we don't need radiography.

Sure, the machinery needs to be paid for, but don't be too money-grubbing and don't fret either.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Glenn Hodgson — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:19:12 GMT

Which machine did you go for Yastha?

We charge 20 for first then 12 for subsequent. Plucked this out of the air. Currently use our big machine which is more time consuming and awkward.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 20:26:54 GMT

Incidentally, pre extraction radiographs in cats can save LOT of time faffing about burring and digging about pointlessly, and reduce costs by speeding you up - so it is actually money well spent. Makes the job so much easier too.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 20:25:11 GMT

the learning curve is a little awkward - teeth in the front of the mouth are fairly easy, teeth in the rear are a right hassle. You usually need to take a LOT of pictures especially at the beginning, and it is unfair to charge a client fully for your time and anaesthesia costs etc while learning. but once you know what you are doing then you should charge appropriately. the radiography charges seem to add between 5-10% to the total procedure costs, which is reasonable.

We have a charge for first, then subsequent, images, and also a separate charge for full mouth radiographs of dog and also cat. I don't usually need a full mouth set, but for instance full mouth extractions on a cat requires that you do. Pre and post extraction radiographs to confirm you have done it properly ar important too. i have colleagues who do better dentistry than me who usually do these for me, but I am progressing.

Dogs are a lot easier to cope with as their mouths are usually larger so its a lot less fiddle.

Selling good-standard dentistry to clients is tricky. i believe that dental disease is the last real welfare issue for otherwise well cared for pets, and while some clients want the best and don't mind paying for it once you have explained the issues - and i reckon about a third of the costs relate to performing safe anaesthesia on often elderly animals for extended periods of time - other folk think you are just trying to rip them off. it doesn't help that there will be some one round the corner who drills everything out and does it fast and cheap.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:23:35 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Remember all costings need VAT added on.[/quote]

No they don't.

VAT is what you add to the client's bill at the end after totting up all your charges.

Anyway, if you want to be scientific about the charge rather than just guessing, I'd suggest writing the cost off over five years: estimate how many dental procedures you will do in five years, and divide the capital cost (plus an allowance for servicing, if any) by that number, and add that to the charge for any dental procedure.

With a bit of luck, the word will get round that your dental work is better than other people's, and you will get more work than estimated.

Or, you could take the approach of not actually charging anything extra at all at first, until the word gets round etc. That's what we did back in the early eighties when we first started doing dentistry properly

You've got a good bit of kit (which will last far far longer than five years), your work is going to be much improved. You can agonise too much about the pricing business

You can tell I don't read management magazines, can't you?.

Re: charging for dental radiography

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 18:31:41 GMT

Guess how long the procedure will take once you're up to speed. Price at surgical rates. Add on anaesthetic charge (if you do so for normal ops) Add on consumables, or costed out share of servicing digital system. Estimate likely number of patients per year, and divide the hire purchase cost between them. Remember all costings need VAT added on.

Wynne