Vaccination sites in cats

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Anthony Todd — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:47:06 GMT

I don't think I've ever seen a lipoma in a cat, confirmed or not; how common are they versus the dog?

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Lucy Fleming — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:00:14 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I wonder if the increasing number of tumours being sent for histopathology and the increasing number of cats being referred is the reson we're more aware of them. And these tumours are rare in first opinion practice, I think I've seen 2 in 11 years. [/quote] I feel there is no doubt you're right Thomas but this is in essence what we've already said.

As for numbers, your 2 in 11 is one more than mine in 39 years and that includes suspicious lumps in the scruff that weren't diagnosed on histology but might have been a VAS so I don't think I've missed any. However I have seen the odd fibrosarcoma in the lumbar muscles/fascia which were well away from traditional vaccine sites so are a few of what are being considered VAS's just unrelated tumours?

[/quote]

I've seen one large firm mass over the neck/ shoulder area which I'm suspicious of, but despite occasionally presenting the cat for appointments as the 'lump has got bigger' the owners are still only thinking about biopsy (an academic interest only at this stage, I suspect!); ironically, I think it's another one that is either unvaccinated or only very infrequently vaccinated. That's the only one I've seen (still quite a noob though)

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Lucy Fleming — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 08:54:57 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]......or just fewer cats with lumps having any investigation done (other than the laying-on of hands, the grave look and the 'I'm afraid it's cancer' pronounced in suitably portenteous tones)[/quote] Ah you're talking about Anthony again.

[/quote]

I actually wasn't...necessarily! I think there are some times when - I wouldn't say we are all guilty of doing this, but perhaps the owners who decline all diagnostics etc hear this (when it wasn't necessarily what was said, but they can then go home and report to spouse/ kids etc that 'the vet said there's nothing we can do'

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 08:30:39 GMT

Does anyone know if there have been any studies looking at whether injection site sarcomas are more common in diabetic cats receiving regular insulin injections?

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:40:34 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]Do not assume a soft subcutaneous mass is lipoma - you will be doing your patients and clients a diservice.[/quote]

Fair enough and, if you don't do histo. you are always right.... Remember back in the day clients weren't so clued up, and if you had to "send something away" it was because you didn't know and therefore were incompetent.

I would like to see a lump that I thought looked like a lipoma that turned out to be a mast cell tumour though.

Pictures would help.

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Sarah Keir — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:40:29 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Didn't always biopsy what I thought was an obvious lipoma [and I think they're obvious, and I've biopsied them too]

[/quote]

From Marek Manual and general knowledge "These tumors (Mast Cell Tumours) vary greatly in size and rate of growth. They can mimic lipomas; therefore, visual signs alone cannot establish a diagnosis." Do not assume a soft subcutaneous mass is lipoma - you will be doing your patients and clients a diservice.

Sarah

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:16:40 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I wonder if the increasing number of tumours being sent for histopathology and the increasing number of cats being referred is the reson we're more aware of them.[/quote]

This maybe a factor but ISS is such a nasty tumour that Iwould think it would have been reported, and earlier than the early 1990s.

Then you get these anecdotal reports, like my mate's from Australia, about a ISS from repeated chest taps in his dog; hard to explain away.

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:44:58 GMT

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:37:06 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

But an ISS, or what they'll be called tomorrow, is hard to miss , ignore or explain away and, so far, dinovets I've spoken to didn't see them before the early 1990s and I have yet to get an earlier reference than one in 1991.

So something changed!

[/quote]

I wonder if the increasing number of tumours being sent for histopathology and the increasing number of cats being referred is the reson we're more aware of them.

In the eleven years since I qualified fewer clients are declining sending tumours for histopathology. And these tumours are rare in first opinion practice, I think I've seen 2 in 11 years. What may have happened in the past is that the tumour was removed, which may have been curative, but more likely the tumour re-grew and the cat was euthanased.

Once referral oncology became more popular some of these cats with tumour re-growth, or cats where the histopathology showed incomplete removal of the tumour, would have been referred, and it would start to become apparent to the referral clinicians that there was a new condition to investigate.

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:03:42 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Ah you're talking about Anthony again.[/quote]

Didn't always biopsy what I thought was an obvious lipoma [and I think they're obvious, and I've biopsied them too]

So something changed!

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:30:46 GMT

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:30:14 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

My understanding is that it is thought to be related to chronic inflammation at injection sites. Can be any injection (hence why the terminology changed from vaccine-associated sarcoma to injection site sarcoma). I believe the current theory is that the inflammatory tissue undergoes malignant transformation (that's only from memory). Those keeping any injections in a cat to a minimum are probably most in line with current thinking.

[/quote]

This was my understanding as well, probably with the same mechanism as feline post-traumatic ocular sarcomas. I also read somewhere that there might be a genetic link, with some cats being more likely to get them than others.

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:32:34 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]but cats weren't vaccinated anualy in the 60s and 70s, maybe 80s?[/quote]

There you go, it may be that it is repeated vaccinations that bring the tumour development via some sort of exaggerated localised immune reaction. And annual vaccination only really kicked off after the great FE scare in the 80s?? [can't remember]??

[/quote]

As to the if/ whether/ why not of when ISS were first recorded, it could be a combination of fewer vaccinated cats prior, fewer cats with anything injected, or just fewer cats with lumps having any investigation done (other than the laying-on of hands, the grave look and the 'I'm afraid it's cancer' pronounced in suitably portenteous tones)

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:32:02 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]So not only is glucosamine useless for arthritis, it's useless for cystitis as well[/quote]Well I'd better tell my knees and my cat's bladder that then.

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:00:13 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]but cats weren't vaccinated anualy in the 60s and 70s, maybe 80s?[/quote]

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:56:19 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]More research into the causes is required, but in the meantime....[/quote]

Yeah, sorry, not trying to be a smarta###. Still waiting for confirmation of ISSs pre 1986, and i get that start point from the 1991 reference where the pathogists went back through their records to 1986 so i assumed that was the date of the first case they found [I'll check the paper]

Malcolm says he's found references to cases in the 60s but I can't ,and he hasn't quoted them yet.

Then you get my friend's dog after chest taps....

there's got to be a common factor somewhere?

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:26:40 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I agree the incidence of ISS is low, but I don't really see any good reasons not to take what steps you can to prevent them (and haven't seen many good reasons cited so far)[/quote]

I can't see how cutting the ensuing tumour out, with or without the neighbouring limb or tissue is exactly prevention; why not try and find out what causes them?

[I know what you meant though]

[/quote]

Yes good point I wasn't very precise - I should say allow them to be more treatable (perhaps...) More research into the causes is required, but in the meantime....

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:22:23 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] but cats weren't vaccinated anualy in the 60s and 70s, maybe 80s?[/quote]

I think (getting hazy here) when "cat flu" vaccines arrived – about 1974?

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 23:37:14 GMT

Coming in late in this debate, I was wondering about the role of aluminium. Because in the olden days we used loads of penstrep or later albipen in cats, and they have alluminium adjuvans in them, not so? Or is it a different alluminium product?

And no, never seen a sarcoma in a cat.

But then also, in the olden days, these sort of vaccinations were usually considered to be good enough for life. Only in the 80s we started to encourage owners to revaccinate their dogs for parvo, maybe lepto, but cats weren't vaccinated anualy in the 60s and 70s, maybe 80s?

Mariette

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:55:55 GMT

I can't see how cutting the ensuing tumour out, with or without the neighbouring limb or tissue is exactly prevention; why not try and find out what causes them?

[I know what you meant though]

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:27:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Richard Carter"]treat feline cystitis with glucosamine, now found to have minimal if any effect[/quote]That's a new on on me - where did you learn this? Danielle Gunn-Moore is going to be very disappointed all her research was in vain.

[/quote]

So not only is glucosamine useless for arthritis, it's useless for cystitis as well

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:25:06 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"] In recent years the fracture caseload has diminished hugely - the plethora of femoral and ante brachial fractures that were seen in most general practices is a thing of the past[/quote]

Interesting observation - I agree - practices don't seem to see fractures so often these days

Why do you think this is ? People looking after their animals better? Animals more street-wise = survival of the fittest? Drivers going slower (or perhaps the opposite - faster = death rather than just fractures)?

[/quote]

I think much more indoor cats now.

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:56:33 GMT

Just to go back to the original thread, I vaccinate over limbs - primarily forelimb as that is what I was taught at Uni, and the reason cited was ISS treatment if required (this was in NZ, and when it was going through a bit of a trend with FIV vaccination). I go below the elbow if possible (at least over scapula if this isn't possible), and haven't noticed any marked increase in reactions. I don't have anyone to help hold.

My understanding is adjuvanted vaccinations appear to be worse, and rabies vaccination is one with a higher incidence, which may be why it is more often seen in the USA.

I agree the incidence of ISS is low, but I don't really see any good reasons not to take what steps you can to prevent them (and haven't seen many good reasons cited so far)

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

bob lehner — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:28:30 GMT

Interesting observation - I agree - practices don't seem to see fractures so often these days

Re: Vaccination sites in cats

Richard Carter — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:29:29 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

Hi - been going through my issues of Companion, ISFM JFMS and JSAPs to try find the article - had lovely pictures with bullet points in boxes but of course now cannot find it - the only recent review I have managed to unearth to indicate that the GAGs may not be that important in feline cystitis is a review by Kerry Simpson in Companion, nov 14 pg 17

Also very good review of feline injection site sarcomas in JFMS, vol 15, issue 5, may 2013 by Jane Ladlow