Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:46:11 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

In my experience they compensate the owner ,no matter the circumstances, thereby confirming that it is the vet's fault.

[/quote]

Surely the vaccine company compensating the owner is an admission that it is the company's fault, if they thought it was the vet's fault they wouldn't pay. In one of my previous jobs we had a vaccinated puppy that had confirmed parvo, but the practice owner had given it's final puppy vaccination when it was 9 weeks and 5 days old, rather than 10 weeks or older, and the company refused to pay for treatment.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:56:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]If you look carefully at some of their data to support various vaccination protocols you will be disillusioned.....[/quote]Don't get me started on my pet subject!

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Anthony Todd — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:50:58 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I am no fan of vaccine companies, they are happy to hide behind the catch-all phrase when they know that a significant number of puppies will fail to respond to a 10 week completion but in this case they would be justified.[/quote]

In my experience they compensate the owner ,no matter the circumstances, thereby confirming that it is the vet's fault.

If you look carefully at some of their data to support various vaccination protocols you will be disillusioned.....

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 12:15:15 GMT

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]They have advised never giving it any vaccines at all and the owner wants to sue the vaccine company! They think it is a severe and rare vaccine reaction. Dunno how the vaccine company will feel about this...[/quote]The vaccine company will be quite happy given the diagnosis of a vaccine reaction is just someone's opinion, that millions of vaccines are given without reaction and even if they were culpable they will hide behind the small print in the data sheet that a small number of individuals will have an adverse reaction (or fail to respond).

I am no fan of vaccine companies, they are happy to hide behind the catch-all phrase when they know that a significant number of puppies will fail to respond to a 10 week completion but in this case they would be justified.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

KMurphy — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:46:00 GMT

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]the owner wants to sue the vaccine company[/quote]

Why does it always have to be someone's fault?

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Kirsten Simpson — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:08:32 GMT

Update incase anyone is caring!

I've been off the last week but the pup was discharged last Saturday (not just been) on Keppra. They have advised never giving it any vaccines at all and the owner wants to sue the vaccine company! They think it is a severe and rare vaccine reaction. Dunno how the vaccine company will feel about this...

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Anthony Todd — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 15:47:47 GMT

My money's still on an accidental ingestion, see if there's any tin-foil in the stool......

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Kirsten Simpson — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:11:27 GMT

Well, the referral place have done full bloods, no sign of a shunt, some minor changes in some things but nothing dramatic. They have put her on Keppra and so far she has responded to that. I rang yesterday to have a chat and they don't know what is going on either. If she responds to the Keppra, she might go home today on that, if not in over the weekend at least. If she still has odd episodes on Keppra then they might MRI scan her etc.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Kirsten Simpson — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:35:33 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

Or what about the act of injection itself - you hear about ID-chips ending up in the CNS, could the vaccination needle have inadvertantly penetrated too far & damaged spinal cord or cerebellum/hind brain?

[/quote]

Yes that was supposed to say "licking" and "seizures" thanks autocorrect! See, I did start to panic that this had happened but I thought back over the vaccine, I used a tiny orange needle, the pup didn't move at all during the whole vaccine or react until just after I removed the needle and I could feel the lump under the skin where it had been given. Still doesn't make me completely paranoid but I've never ever heard of a vaccine going into the spinal cord (I have heard of chips) and I always make sure to scruff + tent scruff + inject into there.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Wren — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:58:26 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]She had two of the spiders that the owner described of suddenly sitting upright, lock-in and retching and anxious.[/quote]

I'm not clear what this bit means?

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure it's what happens when autocorrect gets hold of 'seizures'.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Niall Taylor — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:39:09 GMT

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]She had two of the spiders that the owner described of suddenly sitting upright, lock-in and retching and anxious.[/quote]

I'm not clear what this bit means?

Do the owners smoke - could the pup have eaten cigarette ends? That might fit with the neuro + GI signs.

A difficult case, you have my sympathies - hope you've contacted VDS for a preliminary chat.

Niall

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Anthony Todd — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 17:13:16 GMT

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]he said her husband was on hydrocortisone and omeprazole (erk thought I, interesting combination!) and a heart drug that I can't remember the name of, and she is on Tramadol.[/quote]

My money's on one of those or other stuff she hasn't mentioned. A classic for placeboish B12 ,so at least you've done something, and she'll think it made a difference....

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Kirsten Simpson — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:01:43 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]but the ones she mentioned didn't ring any alarm bells with me.[/quote]

What are they and what are the signs of overdose in humans 'cos there may be an angle and an explanation so you'll sleep tonight?

[/quote]

She said her husband was on hydrocortisone and omeprazole (erk thought I, interesting combination!) and a heart drug that I can't remember the name of, and she is on Tramadol.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Anthony Todd — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:15:35 GMT

[quote user="Kirsten Simpson"]but the ones she mentioned didn't ring any alarm bells with me.[/quote]

What are they and what are the signs of overdose in humans 'cos there may be an angle and an explanation so you'll sleep tonight?

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Kirsten Simpson — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:10:38 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

I wonder what the pup ate at home?

Absolutely no chance that the owner will accept that suggestion though....

[/quote]

The owner is actually being "sensible" and not blaming us so far! She did ask if eating something could have caused this when she came in to pick up the pup. Her and her husband are on some medication. I advised this was a possibility and to let the referral place know but the ones she mentioned didn't ring any alarm bells with me.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Anthony Todd — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:02:30 GMT

I wonder what the pup ate at home?

Absolutely no chance that the owner will accept that suggestion though....

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Kirsten Simpson — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 13:54:56 GMT

Sorry for the delay, been dealing with the pup all morning! Came in for consult and much duller than yesterday, paler MM and inc RR and abdo effort. Lungs clear and abdo palp gassy and squelchy. Had some D+ at home. Taken in for observation. BG 8.7, too wriggly for bloods. Given small dose of dimazon as I was worried incase she had inhaled some saliva or choked and had neurogenic pulmonary oedema. She had two of the spiders that the owner described of suddenly sitting upright, lock-in and retching and anxious. Then she had a seizure at 12. I've rang the vaccine company and spoke with a vet there but it's no vaccine reaction they've had reported. I spoke to the local referral placey and they said it sounds dodgy like something underlying (which is what I'm thinking) like a shunt or hydrocephalus, the referral dude even mentioned distemper as a possibility! I've referred her up. Will update when I know what's going on!

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 12:19:15 GMT

I think with a case like this I would admit the pup for the day for observation. It will give you and the owner a break! I'd run routine bloods to look for any underlying problems and get the nurses to monitor tpr regularly. Maybe fluids if indicated. If you contact the vaccine manufacturer, they may cover your costs. They are usually pretty good like that I've found.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 12:12:03 GMT

Sounds like a very strange 'vaccine reaction' to me!

Contact the vaccine manufacturer and if their vet does not feel it is related to the injection (as I would expect them to!) then you have two very good suggestions above.

Hypersalivation secondary to flea products is a possibility but I have only seen it in cats. Judging by the breed seizure activity has to be a possibility. Strangely when I ask owners to video something the patient usually gets miraculously better!

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Christopher Saul — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 11:57:47 GMT

Could it be some sort of seizure activity? Chiari malformation perhaps? I'd be inclined to get the owner to video the episodes. If nothing else it will give her something to do, and the video might be helpful.

Re: Odd "vaccine reaction" in a 9 week old pup

Andrew Kent — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:59:45 GMT

Hi Kirsten,

Was the puppy treated for fleas at the same time? Doesn't necessarily link with behaviour change but the hyper salivation could be from licking the spot on!

Andy