Cartrophen in cats

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 13:26:16 GMT

[quote user="Stigen"] It is something people are willing to pay for, which will increase the revenue of the clinic. And everyone knows that no matter what treatment you embark upon, there are no guarantees for success..[/quote]

[quote user="Stigen"]'Another point is that it does`nt necessarily have to have the amazing effects that the producer claim[/quote]

But if we are acting as professionals then we must be reasonably confident that it is more than mains-powered homeopathy before we recommend to to treat our patients.

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Stigen — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 12:31:08 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Stigen"]I`m not a laser expert...have`nt even tried it yet, as they are still working on getting it shipped to the clinic. I am sceptical,[/quote] I think I would rather have been certain that an expensive piece of kit was going to have positive advantages before I spent my money. Still its your money!

[/quote]

It`s not my money...nor my decision to buy it...It`s our "sister" clinic who we have good cooperation with...and my girlfriend is a vet there...and if this thing works well in her experience I might borrow it from time to time.

'Another point is that it does`nt necessarily have to have the amazing effects that the producer claim...but when the other clinics in the area are using it daily, and customers are asking specifically for it, then there are some competetive reasons for getting it . Maybe they`ll have animals in for arthritis treatments and owners notice effect...real or placebo...
I think for public relations it serves a purpose in getting it; "we`re just as good and advanced as the other clinics in this area". It is something people are willing to pay for, which will increase the revenue of the clinic. And everyone knows that no matter what treatment you embark upon, there are no guarantees for success..

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:58:01 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I would suggest you don't correct him until after you've passed, though [/quote]

The benefits of an anonymous module feedback survey!

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:57:05 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I still think Anthony would be stretching it considerably to make anything out of the cat's oral health (the state of which seems very uncertain) in his write-up.[/quote]

Coming back to this point, I've found an abstract that suggests dental disease is associated with DM in Burmese cats. Though it is a small sample size and it is probably multifactorial (corticosteroid use is mentioned). Don't think I'll push the link in the discussion however, I'll back myself into a corner

Lederer R, Rand J, Hughes IP, Fleeman LM (2003) Chronic or recurring medical problems, dental disease, repeated corticosteroid treatment, and lower physical activity are associated with diabetes in Burmese cats. Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine 17 (3), 433 (Abstract).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com.ezproxy.liv.ac.uk/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2003.tb02465.x/pdf

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 19:15:20 GMT

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 14:33:07 GMT

[quote user="Stigen"] I am sceptical, but also willing to learn more about it,[/quote]

Me too.

[quote user="Stigen"]There are many studies published on its merrits.[/quote]

Are there? I have seen a lot of low grade anecdote but very little that was of any real interest. Please share any refs you find.

[quote user="Stigen"] don`t think it can do any damage at least...[/quote]

If it has the potential to alter physiology then surely it has the potential to do harm.

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 14:27:53 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

This it?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18751659

[/quote]

The JVD one, yes I remember reading that in 2008. Then I forgot it. Elegantly constructed, at least it brings a little science into the business instead of "bad teeth"

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 14:20:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"] including one correcting me for closing the linea alba with simple interrupted sutures as it 'should be closed with a simple continuous pattern'.[/quote]

Snooty berk.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"] This got 'animals have signs not symptoms. Humans can describe what is wrong with them so it is a symptom, animals cannot so these can only be called signs'.[/quote]

Actually, he's wrong.

I would suggest you don't correct him until after you've passed, though

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Stigen — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 13:26:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Stigen"]I think you`d need more than one session to reap the benefits, and I still believe it to be more efficient than Your average homeopathic remedy.[/quote]As an intelligent person with some knowledge of physics, just think about the properties of a laser and how it works and then explain how it can have anti-inflammatory properties anywhere let alone deep inside soft tissue. I think the salesman would have been a purveyor of snake oil a century ago. This phrase from your post: ...'it is supposed to Cure any disease in the book', leads me to believe you are really sceptical yourself.

PS note I've modified my post - I hope you didn't really think I went for homoeopathy or even to a chiropractor. I only agreed to the laser treatment because I thought it was being used to break down the scar tissue from the surgical incision and the 'practitioner' (note the sceptisism quote marks) was going to do some physio on my knee but no, it was supposed to have a magic anti-inflammatory effect deep within the joint. Needless to say I didn't return and just got on with my own rehabilitation program.

[/quote]I`m not a laser expert...have`nt even tried it yet, as they are still working on getting it shipped to the clinic. I am sceptical, but also willing to learn more about it, and see what areas it has showed to be most useful. There are many studies published on its merrits. I admit that I have`nt read any of those (just told by the rep. ) , but I would like to see what the studies say...and see if there is enoguh data for a meta analysis to have been made.

After reading Ben Goldacre with his superb book "bad science" I know there are many ways to produce studies that give the results you want them to give...but I would like to make my own opinion on the ones published on this subject.
I have access to the laser soon, so I guess I can examine its effect in a more practical context then. I will try it on my own cat, don`t think it can do any damage at least...

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 09:28:46 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

You're welcome!

Wish I could find that "&*^tiny_amp;*^! paper though!

[/quote]

This it?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18751659

[/quote]

Fantastique! Many thanks, David! Yes, that's it!

Go go vetsurgeon!

Re: Cartrophen in cats

David Mills — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 18:52:28 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

You're welcome!

Wish I could find that "&*^tiny_mce_markeramp;*^! paper though!

[/quote]

This it?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18751659

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 17:31:16 GMT

No you're right, I would be. However, should be able to make something of the use of steroids however.

The problem with these case reports, is how well you do massively depends on who's marking it. I got 80% in one, then the next I got 55% with loads of comments - including one correcting me for closing the linea alba with simple interrupted sutures as it 'should be closed with a simple continuous pattern'. Hope I didn't bloody get marked down for that, pretty sure it's surgeon's choice!

Worst comment - I wrote about the dog's symptoms. This got 'animals have signs not symptoms. Humans can describe what is wrong with them so it is a symptom, animals cannot so these can only be called signs'.

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 15:54:16 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

I've been rooting around for it over the weekend, have come up a bit dry however. Found a human paper (not the one i was looking for!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88948/

[/quote]

But thanks for that one, quite a readable review.

I still think Anthony would be stretching it considerably to make anything out of the cat's oral health (the state of which seems very uncertain) in his write-up.

[/quote]

You're welcome!

Wish I could find that "&*^$&*^! paper though!

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:59:22 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

I've been rooting around for it over the weekend, have come up a bit dry however. Found a human paper (not the one i was looking for!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88948/

[/quote]

But thanks for that one, quite a readable review.

I still think Anthony would be stretching it considerably to make anything out of the cat's oral health (the state of which seems very uncertain) in his write-up.

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:05:27 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Incidence? What was "moderate"? This is interesting – I don't suppose you've got a reference?

[/quote]

I've been rooting around for it over the weekend, have come up a bit dry however. Found a human paper (not the one i was looking for!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88948/

but the paper i speak of was a histological exam of liver tissue in dogs with dental disease, and apparently there were signs of a reactive hepatitis in liver tissue in dogs with bad teeth. Very frustrating not being able to find it!

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 17:48:55 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] for most of it's life the cat had bad teeth[/quote]

But it didn't did it?

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]4 anaesthetics for a scale and polish, but no teeth were ever removed as 'under tartar teeth look healthy and gums ok'.[/quote]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]most vaccinations the clinical text has 'needs dental'[/quote]

i.e. whoever did the vaccination saw a lot of calculus, in other words, betcha.

Four "anaesthetics for a scale and polish" with, unless it was unrecorded, no attempt at preventive measures, especially when "gums ok" suggests to me that nobody at that time had much clue what they were doing. Which could be forgiveable, I admit.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]I remember a paper somewhere that showed that even moderate dental disease can cause a chronic 'reactive' hepatitis -[/quote]

Incidence? What was "moderate"? This is interesting – I don't suppose you've got a reference?

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:13:34 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Weird case really, reading the history for most of it's life the cat had bad teeth - most vaccinations the clinical text has 'needs dental' in it somewhere. He'd had about 4 anaesthetics for a scale and polish, but no teeth were ever removed as 'under tartar teeth look healthy and gums ok'. One lot of pre-GA bloods showed azotaemia so the cat was put on a renal diet and been fine since... [/quote]

I remember a paper somewhere that showed that even moderate dental disease can cause a chronic 'reactive' hepatitis - possibly this could also cause problems with other internal organs?

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 13:18:43 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Sorry, what was wrong with the mouth that the glucocorticoid (I presume) started to help with?[/quote]

According to the records, partly gingivitis/'sore mouth', causing inappetance. Not great I know.

This was before I started at the practice, and before my company bought out the practice the cat goes to.

[/quote]

With respect, it sounds as if there was something and nothing looked at by a succession of people who didn't really know what they were looking at. I doubt you could make anything of it in your write-up.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]As an intelligent person with some knowledge of physics, just think about the properties of a laser and how it works and then explain how it can have anti-inflammatory properties anywhere let alone deep inside soft tissue.[/quote]

Well, certainly it would warm the tissues, which may promote healing; (certainly many people with joint pain find heat soothing); the sales literature would woffle on about energising molecules, blah blah, but really it would just be an expensive way of applying warmth.

However, I have also been to a respectable lecture and read a very little respectable literature, indicating that certain wavelengths of light, applied bright enough so that it does get to the tissues, do have certain genuine effects on healing. I can't remember the details, but I do remember two things: firstly, the wavelength is specific, and different wavelengths may have different effects (not surprising, quite sensible); secondly, it does not have to be from a laser, but a laser is a convenient way of getting a very bright light in a particular wavelength band.

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 09:26:12 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Sorry, what was wrong with the mouth that the glucocorticoid (I presume) started to help with?[/quote]

According to the records, partly gingivitis/'sore mouth', causing inappetance. Not great I know.

This was before I started at the practice, and before my company bought out the practice the cat goes to.

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 08:46:20 GMT

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 00:33:13 GMT

[quote user="Stigen"] I still believe it to be more efficient than Your average homeopathic remedy.[/quote]

Why?

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Julian Earl — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 22:50:33 GMT

Ditto, like Stigen I used it on my own 17-years-old cat for arthritic hips [diagnosed on examination not radiographically, and I failed to notice any obvious improvement. I thought she responded better to long-term meloxicam.

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Stigen — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 22:22:47 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Stigen"]Next I`m going to play with our new laser...try it on his knees and hips to see if that makes him a bit more comfortable. [/quote]I had one session of laser therapy after I tore an ACL. After that I went to the chiropractor and the homoeopathic practitioner. Finally I recovered after sensible exercise and physiotherapy.

The first and third sentences are true the second indicates the value I thought laser treatment gave!

[/quote]According to the rep who sold the New laser to one of my colleagues, in an information Meeting I attended, it is supposed to Cure any disease in the book. It seems to have some merrit for certain Things...like wound heaking,inflammatory swelling,arthrithis....etc. I think you`d need more than one session to reap the benefits, and I still believe it to be more efficient than Your average homeopathic remedy. I don`t hav much experience With it, but am willing to give it the benefit of a doubt !

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 22:00:39 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"] He'd had about 4 anaesthetics for a scale and polish, but no teeth were ever removed as 'under tartar teeth look healthy and gums ok'.[/quote]

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Steroids started to help with the mouth[/quote]

Sorry, what was wrong with the mouth that the glucocorticoid (I presume) started to help with?

Re: Cartrophen in cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 17:20:02 GMT

Another who uses it,likes it, and hasn't had any probs.

Wynne