Firework night - What do you use?

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Bob Russell — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 17:30:03 GMT

I am not sure there is much of an argument. I find diazepam works well and I think the interference with memory is probably a bonus. I recommend owners give diazepam even after the event.

I am not overly worried about giving ACP but a 10mg diazepam tablet settles our staffie without much sedation. Not had problems with increased activity except in epileptic dogs and this may be related to seizure activity.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

bob lehner — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 16:53:49 GMT

[[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Where is the evidence from the behaviourists that this basic pharmacology doesn't hold true. [/quote]

I agree - I've often wondered about this ACP v. diazepam et al argument.

I guess 'the experts' might be interpreting from the experience of people who have taken various anxiolytic drugs - but you cannot just presume that the canine brain reacts identically.

Also - from the BSAVA formulary - ' Diazepam is contra-indicated in the long-term treatment of canine and feline behavioural disorders due to the risk of dis-inhibition and interference with memory and learning. A paradoxical increase in activity is possible following oral administration'.

At the end of the day if the dog snoozes peacefully thro' the firework experience then surely everyone is happy?

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 15:17:31 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

[quote user="Louise Alexander"]

ACP is not recommended for use for sound phobias espec fireworks anymore, BSAVA member guidance recommends benzodiazepines over ACP.

ACP causes sedation but the dog is not able to perform coping mechanisms, so may still be able to hear the noises and be frightened but not be able to respond. The other big advantage of BZD is their amnesic effect which aids the phobia.

[/quote]

Ive heard this a lot and I understand the logic, but is there any actual evidence for this position? My experience back when clients asked me about this sort of thing was that diazepam often was not a powerful enough sedation or anxiolytic to hep significantly.

Alex

[/quote]

Norvartis got the following past the VMD:

Phenothiazines have a central action due to inhibition of dopamine pathways, resulting in alteration of mood, reduction in fear and removal of learned or conditioned responses.

At low doses acepromazine reduces anxiety

You're telling me that's not true? It sounds like the ideal drug for this situation.

Where is the evidence from the behaviourists that this basic pharmacology doesn't hold true. I do have to wonder whether the people against the little yellow pills are the ones who want to spend months desensitising dogs and therefore a few yellow pills are not in their financial best interests.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Gerry Henry — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 14:14:03 GMT

Diazepam, need to do several dry runs first to get quantity/timing right, have tried Lorazepam also, better for night pacing in senile dogs.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 12:22:30 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

[quote user="Louise Alexander"]

ACP is not recommended for use for sound phobias espec fireworks anymore, BSAVA member guidance recommends benzodiazepines over ACP.

[/quote]

Alex

[/quote]

Yes this seems to be the current thinking by behaviourists, but where's the evidence? After all, you can't ask the dog how it's feeling.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Alex Gough — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 11:42:05 GMT

[quote user="Louise Alexander"]

ACP is not recommended for use for sound phobias espec fireworks anymore, BSAVA member guidance recommends benzodiazepines over ACP.

[/quote]

Alex

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

John Flynn — Wed, 29 Oct 2014 22:31:14 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

So aside from shutting them somewhere dark and soundproof, what do you do?

Confused

[/quote]

Earplugs.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Louise6732 — Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:58:35 GMT

ACP is not recommended for use for sound phobias espec fireworks anymore, BSAVA member guidance recommends benzodiazepines over ACP.

I agree the way to manage these dogs ideally is desensitization well before the event, and this can be a useful marketing tool come Feb/March to have a campaign then!

But in the short term emergency fix situations, I usually advise as above, den, close curtains, use a Kong to keep them busy etc. I will dispense Xanax (alprazolam) where appropriate, and will try and do a few 'test treatments' with the owner before hand (i.e. give a dose when no fireworks occur, see how the dog responds, does it react to the doorbell etc') to judge the dose the dog needs as it can vary so much.

Louise

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Bob Russell — Wed, 29 Oct 2014 17:33:29 GMT

I recommend the usual den/quiet area/ as decided by the dog. Curtains closed, lights on, TV or radio on. I suggest owners behave as normally as possible, make a cup of tea etc. I do not recommend they make too much fuss of the dog.

We are trying Nutracalm this year but the mainstay is pretty decent doses of diazepam.

My old staffie has become more panicky as her hearing deteriorates so she gets a 10mg diazepam (always seems too big a dose!) and she settles well every time. Requests for more diazepam keep coming in year after year so it must be doing something.

I have not used ACP for years because I have not seen the need but might consider it for the dog that destroys the house! More to save the house than for the sake of the dog!

The joke here is one tablet for the dog and one for the owner. I genuinely believe owners behaviour can make or break firework phobias. Chilled owners seem to have fewer problem dogs.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 29 Oct 2014 15:48:47 GMT

[quote user="Robert Falconer-Taylor"]

This is not correct Mariette. Owners should be advised that they can and should comfort and reassure a dog that is clearly frightened and not coping with the light and noise. Robert

[/quote]

Thanks Robert for your comment. I should reword a bit here: I didn't mean callously ignoring a panicky pet, but I do think pets pick up enormously from their owners if they are anxious themselves (about their pet being frightened) and I believe it helps best to act as normal as possible and reassure by absolutely ignoring what is going on outside. I am with Martin's approach some postings below.

And I don't think I understand the referral to lambing season? Are you referring to frightened lambs or sheep?

Mariette

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 13:21:57 GMT

[quote user="Robert Falconer-Taylor"]

This is not correct Mariette. Owners should be advised that they can and should comfort and reassure a dog that is clearly frightened and not coping with the light and noise. Robert

[/quote]I would take a half way house on this as we are given conflicting advice from various 'experts'. Whilst I think it is wrong to make a bigger fuss than usual with the animal as it could reinforce and encourage the behaviour I would advise just carrying on as usual and try to distract with games and play rather than sitting cuddling them. It has been clearly shown that dogs will deliberately over-react if the owner is over-attentive.

As for what to give I too have given up trying to educate owners, very few want to listen to or pay for advice and stuff like Sounds Scary CDs, Adaptil, Zylkene, Calmex, even benzodiapzapines etc and I can't blame them because the effect is very patchy and variable. This year I'm just going to hand out the little yellow pills on request. I've gone a full circle on this and truly believe that a dog that is snoozing contentedly while the siege of Baghdad is going on outside is not fighting its inner torment trying but unable to escape!

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 11:01:01 GMT

Of sorts, yes - see http://behaviourvet.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/should-fearful-dogs-be-comforted-on-fireworks-night/

From a biological perspective what Rachel says makes sense - there are no examples in nature of giving comfort and reassurance being a reinforcer of a fear response - lambing is a good time to see this in action.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Will McMullan — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 09:43:16 GMT

[quote user="Robert Falconer-Taylor"]

This is not correct Mariette. Owners should be advised that they can and should comfort and reassure a dog that is clearly frightened and not coping with the light and noise. Robert

[/quote]

Is there any evidence to back up either position? My dog is not scared of fireworks but does seem to relax if I comfort her when she is scared by something. It doesn't happen too often though so I guess in another dog it might reinforce the anxious behaviour.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 09:19:29 GMT

This is not correct Mariette. Owners should be advised that they can and should comfort and reassure a dog that is clearly frightened and not coping with the light and noise. Robert

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 23:26:26 GMT

All of the above but the one useful advice is the counter-intuitive one of NOT giving the poor trembling dog special attention, since that will multiply the distressed behaviour. Safe den yes, but otherwise ignore as much as possible. happily watching the neighbours' fireworks while feeding the dog supernice snacks like frankfurters cut up in small pieces also helps in greedy dogs!

Mariette

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Busybee — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 21:07:04 GMT

get them to start asap, not the day before the fireworks start
discuss behavioural aids ie. den, radio/tv on etc
advise there is a whole spectrum of anti-anxiety 'medications' and it may be trial and error to find one that helps
Zylkene/Calmex/Scullcap & Valerian - for mild anxiety
Xanax - moderate anxiety
Diazepam - severe anxiety

Which one we choose depends on the owner, the dog, the severity of the problem and the length of time we have before the main event!

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 19:36:58 GMT

ACP. Tried the 'soft' approach and disappointed owners. Rural area so we might get two days of it, not like 6 weeks of bangs in the big towns and cities.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 19:06:58 GMT

Provide a den, carbohydrate rich meal, Zylkene and Adaptil in the run up to Fireworks night. Diazepam if needed.

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 18:48:23 GMT

Dogs Trust is an up-to-date good resource to refer clients to as it does NOT tell owners to ignore their fearful dogs - http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/factsheetsanddownloads/factsheetfireworksnov13.pdf

Re: Firework night - What do you use?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 18:40:50 GMT

http://www.bsava.com/resources/positionstatements/fireworks is a start. Given most clients seem unwilling to do longterm treatment, we are left with short term behavioural advice +/- medications for anxiety: DAP sometimes helps, medication wise I've had most success with alprazolam; a few dogs seem to respond well (or rather not respond!) with Calmex