Where does responsibility stop?

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Glenn Hodgson — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 20:58:04 GMT

Let the vet know the client was a sh#ster so they can avoid the same happening again. Request a clinical history. Hope the clients address comes with the history. Pay the seller a visit. Small claims action should be easy if you have to go that far.

There are lots of people finders like this out there http://www.traceadebt.com.

We had a Facebook hater from 200 miles away. Never been near our practice. Located his address.(cost 20 pounds) and sent a recorded delivery letter. negative comment was taken down.

People don't take the mick as much when you know where they live ;-)

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 17:03:09 GMT

Microchipping dogs is a bit of a free for all and there is no excuse for the present state of affairs. I suspect loose rules were to allow trained charity staff to chip dogs and cats. A vet has to microchip horses.

In the past you could get chips via ebay that were easily programmable and there was a Youtube video on how easy it was to do! The chips need to be programmable which I understand ISO chips are not.

Dealers and horses - 'caveat emptor' !

I understood that the prime purpose of chipping horses was to allow medication administration to be controlled to restrict drug residues in food.

Some vets have a depressing attitude to signatures but that has been done to death on previous threads!

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Roger Meacock — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 16:19:52 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]goodness knows how many foreign criminals have "vanished"[/quote]

.......... ??? on horseback!

[/quote]

Maybe then if horses are more traceable we'd find the illegal immigrants!

I agree that the Horse Passport situation is a joke. I hope it doesn't take a breakdown in Biosecurity to point it out to those who should be tightening it up because no doubt it would be the horses that suffer in the middle.

If Passports are sent directly to owners which leaves it open for someone else to fill in details supported unwittingly by the Vet's signature, then surely BEVA need to lobby DEFRA to ensure Passports are sent back via the Practice so that either further details are filled in or unfilled areas are clearly scored through so they can't be added to by unscrupulous people. The other option is for a profession-wide agreement that all details are filled in and there are no cheap or short-cut options. The current situation only facilitates the situation my partner and I find ourselves under.

The system as implemented and legislated is clearly not sufficient for a number of reasons ranging from my purchase situation to ability to identify a horse if a chip becomes unreadable, but surely there is nothing to stop Vets ensuring that it works as best it can by overlying a higher level of certification standards. If everybody does the same and stands together then there is no option but for owners to comply.

On the subject of micro-chipping being an act of veterinary surgery I don't think that's accepted given the number of lay microchippers that currently implant chips in dogs and exceedingly young puppies where the needle size relative to the pup is akin to using an Olympic javelin on a horse!

Best

Roger

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 15:22:06 GMT

Follow the news!

Wynne

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 15:18:46 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]goodness knows how many foreign criminals have "vanished"[/quote]

.......... ??? on horseback!

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 14:36:36 GMT

Roger Bio-security and traceability is even more chaotic for humans - goodness knows how many foreign criminals have "vanished"

Wynne

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 14:30:03 GMT

The horse passport rules are a farce - there is no central database.

The issue with the passport as a certificate is that it's clearly a work in progress and can be added to later. The microchip only passports are sent directly to the owner after we complete the chip details online - with the age 'as given by owner'. My wife* has one of those passports so I can check when I get home, but I believe they are printed with a blank sketch that could be completed later.

As far as I am concerned, if a horse is chipped I am checking that and certifying the vaccination against the chip only (as I would with a pet passport). If older and not chipped then I look at the sketch. The sketches are of very variable quality (in my experience) and a terrible way of trying to identify a horse. They were just the best we had at the time.

Microchipping a horse is an act of veterinary surgery, so that part has to be done by an MRCVS.

(*for her horse, I'm not married to a horse)

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Roger Meacock — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 14:05:36 GMT

Thanks for the replies so far.

I have no intention of making a complaint against the Kent vet to RCVS and invoking a Disciplinary, however the question remains as to what a vet's signature actually stands for and what is the purpose of a Passport if there is no requirement for the inserted microchip to match the description of the horse/pony it was put into? There is nothing other than the description in the Passport of DoB = 01/04/2014, height = 15.1hh, colour = grey & gender = female that links the microchip number with that individual especially given that I've heard there is a company who will make up microchips to order ... If the microchip were to fail the pony we have cannot in any way be linked to that Passport with any certainty - it could equally be relevant for any grey mare based on the present accuracy. For all the accuracy involved in signing the Passport the gender might as well be wrong too and that equally would be OK?

When one of the assurances given about the pony was that it has a Passport signed by a vet less than a month ago, that in itself should be sufficient to give confidence in the correctness of the age and height at least and anything else on the passport.

I used to sign Export certificates for pigs to Italy. If I signed a certificate I either filled in a gap with the correct detail having checked it myself with the PIC man or I put a line through the statement and gap so that nothing could be inserted and attributed to my certificate after the event without me knowing. I would then initial every page and line placed. If vets signing Passports don't have the same attitude to signing an official document that could be used as documentation for travelling, vaccination certification etc then by our neglect we allow this practice of inaccuracy to be as common as it appears to be and it discredit's the standing and reliability of every Vet's signature on any other document for any species. What distinguishes a vet's signature above a lay microchipper or owner self-certification if we don't guarantee accuracy?

The worrying aspect of the replies to date seem to suggest that such inaccuracy is deemed normal and OK and nobody worries what else might be filled in on a certificate after the event? Maybe this attitude amongst more senior practitioners has led to the lack of importance attributed to a signature by more recent graduates.

It is interesting to note that I spoke with a trainer friend in Kent to find out if he knew the seller by reputation as it would appear she is a bit of a dealer. He didn't know her but has just travelled out to Switzerland with a horse that according to the certificate was a mare yet has been a gelding ever since it's castration!

It's good to know the UK is fully ready and compliant for Bio-security and traceability of horses.

Best wishes

Roger

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

bob lehner — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:40:28 GMT

[quote user="Roger Meacock"] Clearly, with hindsight it would have been better for my partner to have viewed the horse/pony in advance in person rather than reply on photos and assurances but given there were specific assurances and a Passport signed by a vet it seemed kosher ..[/quote]

I'm afraid that just about says it all.

My experience gained over many years has been to absolutely never believe anything a horse owner says about an animal they are trying to sell, however plausible they may seem.

(Of course the option of paying for a pre-purchase examination by a VS is there to protect the buyer).

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:14:44 GMT

It appears from what you have said that your partner bought a horse unseen and relied upon what the previous owner has stated to be the case!

If an item arrives where the description has been misrepresented then you only have the same rights as if you had bought a second hand car from someone with a mobile number that leaves cars dotted across the area with 'For Sale' notices in the window!

Trading standards will probably have a file a mile thick if this is a dealer but these people often have numerous CCJ's against them so the likelyhood of getting money from them is nil!

If the vet has used the passport to satisfy him or herself that it is the right horse (colour, whorls etc) then the vet is certifying the microchip and not the height, age of the animal except as described by the owner at the time.

If you think the vet has falsely certified the horse (or been negligent) then you need to talk to the authorities but does a vet certify the description? Healthwise you only have a claim if a proper certificate of examination. The owner has declared it fit, not the vet!

Like thousands of others you have probably bought a 'pup'.

Small claims against the owner if you think they have any money you can get hold of!

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 10:43:19 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I make it very clear that the part I am signing relates only to the chip, and in no way do I take responsibility for a sketch completed by a third party or at a later date (If my memory is correct the microchip only passports come with a blank sketch that can be completed later).

[/quote]

This is what I used to do when I microchipped horses and filled out passport forms, but from what I remember you did have to fill in the horse's height, colour and age (which had a tickbox for unknown).

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 09:52:59 GMT

People exist that are somehow magically qualified to complete the sketch of the horse. We do a few chips in these, and a few microchip only passports.

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

Sarah McGurk — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:49:44 GMT

What a horrible situation. If the owner has gone incommunicado, do you have any idea of how to proceed?

I can't imagine you would end up having to go after the vet directly. Your contract is with the seller and therefore it is up to them to reimburse you if the "goods" provided were not as described. It might end up with you having to go to court to try to get your money, in which case, I guess the other vet might end up being called as a witness, which might be uncomfortable for all concerned.

I think it is important, however, that you discuss this further with the other vet. If they are, in effect, guilty of false certification, even if through deliberate deceit by the seller, then they need to know that they should avoid ever repeating this error. It seems to me that many of us, probably through a failure to think through potential consequences or being too trusting, might easily end up in serious trouble without ever having set out to deceive. Maybe a wake-up call would be no bad thing, though I very much hope it doesn't go further than that, for your sake and hers.

Re: Where does responsibility stop?

J G Wray — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:38:32 GMT

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]We want the pony taken back and our money and travel/livery expenses repaid on the basis of the pony is not as described and not fit for purpose either.[/quote]

http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/businesssupportandadvice/tradingstandards.htm

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]The seller has gone incommunicado.[/quote]

If you are the vet charged with the care of this pony then you can reasonably request a history from the vet. If that vet is suitably registered under the DPA and makes matters clear to their clients that they might pass on information to third parties in their Terms and Conditions, then you might , if the vet is clear they can do so, get some contact info from then.

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]Where does the responsibility of the vet who signed the Passport for the microchip stand on this?[/quote]

Responsibility for what? If you're making the argument that they are culpable for the misidentification of an animal and part of the misrepresentation of that animal in a sale then this is a serious charge. Personally, I think, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, this argument is "..."as thin as the homeopathic soup that was made by boiling the shadow of a pigeon that had starved to death." But, if you believe it to be so then you or your partner has redress free of charge at the Court of the Royal College, who like little more than a complaint about certification, with an easy evidence trail, where they can grandstand about professional standards and ethics. There is almost a symmetry in that this complaint should come from an alternative practitioner.

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]My understanding is that our contract is with the seller who should reimburse us on the basis that what we have falls foul of the Goods for Sale Act but I am concerned that this will be pushed onto the Vet as clearly the Passport supports the detail of the advertisement.[/quote]

Well, you have my opinion as above, It's up to you to wrestle with your conscience.

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]Could I be put in the position of having to go after the vet who signed the Passport for recompense?[/quote]

Tthe philosphical and legal arguments surrounding the imprimatur that a vet gives in the sale of animals is an old one, which VDS will give you a better answer for than RCVS.

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]I'd rather not, but on the other hand I don't want to be out of pocket either.[/quote]

caveat emptor

Still there's one bright spot. The welfare of this creature sounds as if it's been significantly enhanced by coming under your care.