Should I have called the RSPCA?

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Bob Russell — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 10:46:23 GMT

But owners rarely/never leave the practice at the end of the day with a bill of under £100!

I completely agree that it is not possible to do any more than cover basic overheads at that price even stacking them high! I don't believe surgery should be a loss leader nor an opportunity to pad bills. This is all part of the devaluing of the profession by the Spec-Savers mentality

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 10:31:01 GMT

[quote user="emster5"]or how long Malcolm has worked in referral practice for that he believes bitch spays cost less than £100 in first opinion practice[/quote]

I have worked in referral practice for about twenty five years and throughout that time I have been involved in the day to day running of a primary care practice. Today, I could direct you to at least half a dozen practices within 50 miles of where I am sitting who will quote a price of less than one hundred pounds to spey a bitch. If you are suggesting that the job can't be done properly at that price, then I would agree.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

emster5 — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 08:22:56 GMT

Sorry i came to this discussion very late and i suspect all bases have been covered already. I couldn't agree with Gillian Mostyn more. This lady had had 63 days at the very least to make provision for a difficult whelping or opt for spaying or misalliance treatment if the mating was accidental (I am always surprised by how many pedigree bitches manage to accidentally find a mate of the same breed (unless it is a staffie)). I suspect I would have seen the dog for the £100 but Marriette was only trying to explain that this would cover 1st aid treatment only. It sounds like the client did not give her much chance to discuss anything. I'm not sure why vets such as Martin think we should put up with a torrent of abuse and then 'in the worst case lose your job' or how long Malcolm has worked in referral practice for that he believes bitch spays cost less than £100 in first opinion practice. A very interesting discussion though. I'm sure it's a subject that will continue to have us banging our heads against the wall for years to come

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Bob Russell — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 14:42:02 GMT

As I said, a small number of people making good money!

We have the Owing money model practices here too. Just a little less 'sly' about suggesting charitable motives?

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 14:26:21 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]If you check profit figures for OOH clinics they do not smack of profiteering. A large number of people get jobs and a very tiny number of people make a lot of money. [/quote]A bit like our friend 'Owing Money' who claims he makes no profit then - depends how you define profit. A tiny number of people making a lot of money is profiteering my books. Sadly for the majority of us; for tax evaders and bullshitters its not.

And the employees like out hapless OP are left to pick up the pieces and face the music because of corporate policy

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Bob Russell — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 14:13:29 GMT

It could be argued that in a dedicated OOH centre £100 would not have involved a significant loss as long as other work was not affected, delayed or cancelled.

Staff would be there anyway. Consumables would be covered etc.

The big downside to this is the setting of a real precedent!

Bad debtors get a bu**er off letter and after that the absolute minimum required on welfare grounds. PTS is an option and one that the RCVS should discuss in full on its website. Best place is on the complain about a vet page!

If you check profit figures for OOH clinics they do not smack of profiteering. A large number of people get jobs and a very tiny number of people make a lot of money.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 13:00:42 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]And so, to compensate, they will have to jack up their fees yet more so that the payers end up subsidising the non-payers. And we'll all be screaming about how ridiculously overpriced OOH consults are.[/quote]Hmmm....I suspect most dedicated OOH providers didn't think, 'Oh I know what we can do to assist in the welfare of animals - let's set up an OOH clinic'. No they did it because they recognised a marketplace and earning opportunity. This doesn't give them a right to disengage from their responsibilities as vets for animal welfare. Sadly they have to take the rough with the smooth the same as all of us. It is not an excuse to jack up prices it should have been factored in to start with the same as all of us - you win some (most) and lose some (very few).

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Virginia Campbell — Sat, 25 Oct 2014 17:57:29 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The difference between this and the OP is that Andrew's client has a proven track record [/quote]

I agree with this. The trouble is, OOH practices hardly ever have track records to look at. So if they take this stance:

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]innocent until proved guilty [/quote] and do £500+ worth of work for a deposit of £100, for a client they have no previous relationship with, especially for the typical non-paying scenarios - Caesars and parvo pups, and any dog with no history of ever having had 5p spent on it then turns up in extremis with a splenic haemangiosarc or something else that could well end up dead:

then they will end up having to write off a lot of bad debts. A greater % of bad debts than we have in ordinary practice where most of the stuff is routine, paid for at the time, and we have a good idea in advance who we can trust.

And so, to compensate, they will have to jack up their fees yet more so that the payers end up subsidising the non-payers. And we'll all be screaming about how ridiculously overpriced OOH consults are.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 25 Oct 2014 09:39:53 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]Absolutely right. It's about standing up to the bullies. You called his bluff and the bitch was not PTS, but even if she had been it would probably have saved other bitches belonging to him and his breeder mates in the future, so would have been for the greater good. [/quote]++ And I would have done exactly the same as Andrew. I would have no whiff of a conscience over that course of action, and would have vented my anger upon the client giving him no doubt what scum of the earth he was. I doubt he will return again. The difference between this and the OP is that Andrew's client has a proven track record and is very clearly taking the piss. The client in the OP had to remain innocent until proved guilty and a straight choice of PTS or pain relief wasn't fair.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Jo Dyer — Sat, 25 Oct 2014 08:21:22 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Chadwick"]He stormed out, informing us he would take the dog elsewhere and that he would call down the wrath of the RCVS on us in short order………….. if it had come to it I think I could have euthanased the bitch in this situation to prevent her continued suffering, and enforce the message to the owner, and any breeder mates he may have,that breeding dogs for money carries a risk of expensive complications that he (not we) are responsible for dealing with in the hope that he might think twice about having funds available in future to look after his dogs properly. [/quote]

Absolutely right. It's about standing up to the bullies. You called his bluff and the bitch was not PTS, but even if she had been it would probably have saved other bitches belonging to him and his breeder mates in the future, so would have been for the greater good.

From what Mariette says it sounds as if even RCVS are getting it into their heads that the owner, not the vet, has primary responsibility for the animal's welfare. Hooray!

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 25 Oct 2014 01:59:50 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Chadwick"] and that he did not expect to be charged as we had a 'duty of care'! Hung up on the receptionist before any further discussion could take place. Arrived with whelping bitch in difficulty - stuck pup, caesar needed. Was told that in view of his debt history no surgery would be undertaken without full payment up front. Of course we would not allow the animal to suffer but pts was all we could offer.[/quote]

You did right.

[quote user="Andrew Chadwick"]On balance I think I could have continued to sleep at night (just).[/quote]

I would have done, easy peasy.

[quote user="Andrew Chadwick"]Would still have felt horribly guilty about it of course [/quote]

Why?

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Andrew Chadwick — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 23:02:50 GMT

It looks like this one has been put to bed and I not looking to stir things up at all but I am curious about something - reading earlier posts (and many earlier threads on the same subject) it appears that the majority of us would do whatever it takes in this situation to deliver pups and get the bitch home again, ooh and on whatever payment plan the owner tells us they can agree to and with no guarantee that they will honour rather than pts an otherwise healthy animal. I get this, and for the record have never euthanased an otherwise healthy whelping bitch on cost grounds. It is, after all, an emergency situation and we have to be able to sleep at night. However we had an incident recently which I would be interested to hear peoples views on. A known, serial bad debtor ex-client (had been sacked, seen in an emergency, then sacked again for total non payment...not an unfamiliar scenario to most of us I imagine) phoned the surgery to inform us that he was bringing a French Bulldog in for a Caesar, and that he did not expect to be charged as we had a 'duty of care'! Hung up on the receptionist before any further discussion could take place. Arrived with whelping bitch in difficulty - stuck pup, caesar needed. Was told that in view of his debt history no surgery would be undertaken without full payment up front. Of course we would not allow the animal to suffer but pts was all we could offer. He stormed out, informing us he would take the dog elsewhere and that he would call down the wrath of the RCVS on us in short order. This guy breeds multiple breeds of dog in significant numbers, and if we had been charitable on this occasion he would, I feel certain, have expected the same treatment in future, whenever he demanded it. I think there are a lot of breeders out there who would do the same. Personally I feel that pts in this case is different in terms of the vet-client relationship than the one-off pet owner who 'hadn't got round' to having their animal neutered and been caught out. Unfortunately it is not different in terms of the result for the animal. However, if it had come to it I think I could have euthanased the bitch in this situation to prevent her continued suffering, and enforce the message to the owner, and any breeder mates he may have,that breeding dogs for money carries a risk of expensive complications that he (not we) are responsible for dealing with in the hope that he might think twice about having funds available in future to look after his dogs properly. On balance I think I could have continued to sleep at night (just). Would still have felt horribly guilty about it of course but then that's what they rely on really isn't it??

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 15:39:23 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Might be wrong of course, you could just be bitter![/quote]That's bitter? You wait until I really do bitter!

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 15:28:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

@martinatkinson

What a bitter man you are.

[/quote]Perhaps you'd like to elaborate. I've eaten humble pie (OK only a little), posed a genuine dilemma regards the double standards of how RCVS deal with these cases and asked a genuine question over a related scenario. How does that make me bitter?

[/quote]

Might be related to the comments regarding the pile 'em high, screw 'em comments regarding the cheap and nasties! Might be wrong of course, you could just be bitter!

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 15:19:53 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

@martinatkinson

What a bitter man you are.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 14:39:12 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]O phoned the RCVS guide of professional conduct support.[/quote]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]So you breed your dog, not happy with the costs involved of your own made problem, make a bitch suffer and still contact the guys who rule my job so you can potentially destroy my career. Well done the college for handling it appropiately!!![/quote]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]Aarrrrg, I am really sorry for a stupid typo. Not O but I phoned the Royal College!

Mariette

[/quote]

Well, perhaps I went too far there then. However, it wouldn't have been a surprising thing to happen.

I can tell from first hand experience!!

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Gerry Henry — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 08:31:49 GMT

@martinatkinson

What a bitter man you are.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 22:31:55 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

Good thread Mariette, I wish upon you a nice run of grateful (paying) clients now :-)

[/quote]

Thanks Virginia, I hoped to create something others can fall back on (And sort out my own doubts!).

Mariette

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 22:30:27 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]On the question of seeing clients without money the advice was that I had handled the case appropriately and did not need to worry. If owners do not or cannot pay, then only pain relief or PTS need to be offered.[/quote]

Thank u Mariette for this thread, it is an interesting case that many of us had faced and will face again. It is time that some (few!) of our customers realise what breeding really requires before they embark on it.

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

O phoned the RCVS guide of professional conduct support.[/quote]

So you breed your dog, not happy with the costs involved of your own made problem, make a bitch suffer and still contact the guys who rule my job so you can potentially destroy my career. Well done the college for handling it appropiately!!!

[/quote]

Aarrrrg, I am really sorry for a stupid typo. Not O but I phoned the Royal College!

Mariette

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 18:37:03 GMT

Good thread Mariette, I wish upon you a nice run of grateful (paying) clients now :-)

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 17:29:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

nothing hypocritical, and it's an unpleasant aspersion to cast.

The same could be said for sole-charge owners who do it all themselves. surely?

[/quote]Sorry you're offended, I'm not calling you a hypocrite (perhaps that was too strong a word - maybe a conflict of information) its just that you stated that you don't approve of working on commission yet said that OOH bonuses were different. Surely you can see how I had difficulty reconciling those statements.

Sole charge is totally different, I earn what I earn. Yes there is an incentive to see things and perform unnecessary investigations but quite honestly I would rather stay in bed at night or have a quiet day - my worst nightmare (literally) is a full waiting room. Money has never been my motivation, I need to live for sure and get pissed off if clients can't/won't pay but my primary concern is the animal's welfare. Hence I drive a Skoda (very nice though it is) and my nearest competitors drive a Lamborghini and Porsche respectively!

[/quote]

I'm not that offended - and i suppose you do have a point. i suppose my answer is that given for many years I felt working OOH was an unpaid extra that i had to do because 'that's the job', when our terms changed and a bonus was offered, I did feel i deserved it.

After the taxman had his pound of flesh, it wasn't worth the bother really, but every few months a bit extra in the paycheque was appreciated. and i got off that hamster wheel as soon as an exit became available.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:32:32 GMT

I'm pleased it all turned out alright Mariette and I'm sorry if I sounded over-disapproving. If nothing else it has provided a stimulating discussion and highlighted a huge gulf in our understanding of our responsibilities and in the way individuals would handle a similar case.

However it gives me small comfort post Chocosi, even with the re-worded code of conduct, that our august body would respond rationally in all similar cases. It also does little to dispel the concerns over responsibility when instructions from the practice owners seemingly conflict with our individual responsibility under our code of conduct. For example, how would you have dealt with it if the owner had told you they had no money whatsoever? This is something that you would be well advised to be clear on if when a similar dilemma appears.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Sarah McGurk — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 16:05:21 GMT

Thanks Mariette for the very reassuring feedback. I'm very glad you made that call to the RCVS, and delighted they seem to be taking a very sensible approach.

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:36:39 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

O phoned the RCVS guide of professional conduct support.[/quote]

Re: Should I have called the RSPCA?

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:26:19 GMT

I have done some follow up and can contribute this to maybe round off the discussion:

I contacted the user practice and the client had turned up there first thing in the morning. An emergency caesarean was done and all puppies were alive. I did not ask about the financial arrangements as I considered that none of my business at this point.

O phoned the RCVS guide of professional conduct support.

On the question of seeing clients without money the advice was that I had handled the case appropriately and did not need to worry. If owners do not or cannot pay, then only pain relief or PTS need to be offered.

On the question of contacting the RSPCA the advice was that in any case where I can defend that I act in the interest of the animal's welfare, a breach of confidence is justified. Since I had knowledge of an animal in distress and possibly in danger, it would not have been wrong to ask a RSPCA officer to check on the situation, in the interest of the animal's welfare.

Mariette