Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:38:06 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]DEFRA are very clear on this: to qualify for entry to the UK on a pet passport the vaccine cannot have been given before 12 weeks then there is the 3 week wait which mean they must be at least 15 weeks old before they can enter the UK.[/quote]

My understanding, quoting from Defra, was they must "after the minimum age of vaccination in the country of origin, have been vaccinated against rabies" and then 21d wait; until later this year when a blanket 12 week minimum age for rabies vaccination comes in.

[/quote]I can only go on what I was told. The bottom line however is: if in doubt call the local trading standards officer and let them make the decision, then you can't go wrong (other than if he/she neglects his/her duty of care Rabies could get introduced into the country which is after all what this is all about).

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:36:04 GMT

^^^ So you did. I missed that. But repetition reinforces the little grey cells. Mine, anyway!

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:08:59 GMT

Actually I said that 1st

Wynne

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:54:49 GMT

I would not agree that it is OK to alter a pet passport and rewrite the validity date - even if the DEFRA paper pusher said it was OK it certainly wasn't. How would we feel if a Spanish or French vet changed all our validities to a single year because their rules are different? DEFRAs rule is based on the country the vaccine was administered in - end of. I doubt this will be the last time spurious advice comes from some second rate functionary, but as Malcolm says, make sure it is written down and signed before you act on it...!

I think things will be clearer/ more uniform from the end of the year but it sounds like the new passports will be a right hassle to fill in...not looking forward to it at all.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Sammy82 — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:46:43 GMT

https://www.gov.uk/take-pet-abroad/rabies-vaccination-boosters-and-blood-tests

"minimum 15 weeks" was my understanding too, but I just had a look on the goverment petpassport Q&A site and it says "most vaccines can only be given at minimum 12 weeks" it doesn't say all, and it doesn't say a general minimum age.

What I did notice is that the day of vaccination is day 0, not day1 for the 3 week wait.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 20:43:46 GMT

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:12:38 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]This really isn't one to THINK about, or to try to please owners, else you risk having a "stateless" patient who's not allowed into another country, or back into this one. Customs officers obey rules - do the same or risk disaster![/quote] And add to this that there is an obligation to report illegal entry to the local trading standards officer. If necessary seize the dog and call the police if things turn nasty.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 10:16:53 GMT

EXACTLY!

Other states in the EU have the same legal right to vary conditions.

Don't ever guess CHECK CHECK and CHECK again.

Having checked OBEY. This really isn't one to THINK about, or to try to please owners, else you risk having a "stateless" patient who's not allowed into another country, or back into this one. Customs officers obey rules - do the same or risk disaster!

Wynne

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 08:54:54 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]We just had an issue where we thought there may have been an illegal import of a pup but it turned out it had been given the rabies vacc according to the data sheet in the Slovak republic which has an earlier start date than ours. [/quote]You haven't stated dates here but the dates allowed by other states and on data sheets for administration of the rabies vaccine are irrelevant to UK PETS regulations. This has been the subject of another thread but we have had a number of illegally imported puppies from Eastern Europe with ostensibly valid passports with the vaccine given earlier than 12 weeks according to their data sheets.

DEFRA are very clear on this: to qualify for entry to the UK on a pet passport the vaccine cannot have been given before 12 weeks then there is the 3 week wait which mean they must be at least 15 weeks old before they can enter the UK.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 00:41:53 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]1. Never, ever diagnose a notifiable disease - promptly inform the ministry vet of your suspicion and formally ask for a second opinion. That way you avoid all the sh1t and all the paperwork.[/quote]

I showed a picture of a cow's scabby nose to a vet at the VLA. He thought it looked like Bluetongue, and reported it to the duty vet.

That's half a day of my life I won't get back.

(wasn't BTV)

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 22:47:49 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]is that you phone DEFRA[/quote]

I was given some extremely wise advice about dealing with MAFF while a student seeing practice.

1. Never, ever diagnose a notifiable disease - promptly inform the ministry vet of your suspicion and formally ask for a second opinion. That way you avoid all the sh1t and all the paperwork.

2. Never, ever believe anything a MAFF employee says unless and until it is written down and signed.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 19:23:30 GMT

These different license lengths and starting age are a pain. We just had an issue where we thought there may have been an illegal import of a pup but it turned out it had been given the rabies vacc according to the data sheet in the Slovak republic which has an earlier start date than ours. (of course it might have helped if the breeder had given the new owner the passport for the pup in the first place! We think he was trying to pass them off as bred in the UK which fell down when she went to register the chip with petlog and they told her it was a European one. Turns out there was even a website you could check it on with the issue date of the passport and the name of the vet who issued it.)

I am glad that is something that is changing at the end of this year at least. It will be good to have the 12 weeks Europe wide to deal with that problem anyway.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 15:45:44 GMT

Don't know who has red-starred me for just giving a report of my experience after someone had 5 starred me. Rather silly I'd say as its not something even to disagree about it is fact it happened as stated.

The moral of all this as is obvious is that you phone DEFRA and let them make the decision then whatever happens its not your fault.

As a slight aside someone came in just now for a Rabies vaccine to travel to Eire in 48 hours. He said the ferry company requested it. I advised him that a passport would not be valid for 3 weeks so after a brief discussion he decided not to have the vaccine. But what was rather odd was that he presented an Irish issued pet passport with the dog's details but no other entries so what's the point in that? Given when he brought the dog over originally he had no record of normal vaccination because 'the breeder' had bought them and given them herself, nothing that emerges from the emerald isle regarding animal welfare surprises me.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

James Laidlaw — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:20:25 GMT

When I phoned defra I was advised not to amend any dates and that whatever was written in the passport was the valid date. Case had had a 3 year duration vaccine in the UK but then given a booster in Spain within that time with a one year duration that would expire EARLIER than the 3 year was valid until... Despite there being no current requirement for OV training outside the UK, sometimes I feel like it would help standardize the approach across the EU for passports.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:18:28 GMT

I have had this situation back in the day when it was a 6 month waiting time after rabies vaccination and took the following action:

1) I phoned the vaccine manufacturer with the batch number of the vaccine used and they confirmed that this did indeed have a 3 year licence until next booster.

2) I called DEFRA and advised them of the circumstances and they said it was in order for me to change the passport to show the 3 years validity.

3) I amended the passport with the revised date of validity and endorsed it in the back with the reasons for this alteration.

AFAIA the client travelled and there were no problems.

If you follow this procedure you should be fine but DO pass this by DEFRA first and get a reference for the conversation from them so if the proverbial does hit the fan the buck stops with them.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Alex Allen — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:48:13 GMT

Following on from Stephen's reply the rabies authorisations may differ between countries even if they are the same vaccine made in the same factory. This is down to the individual country's medicines authority and the duration of immunity granted on the authorisation.

For example our Rabies vaccine in France has a 1 yr doi. The identical vaccine in Germany has a 2yrs doi.

To add to the confusion the Canigen Rabies in the UK with a 3yrs doi is NOT the same vaccine as Canigen Rabies in the rest of Europe.

DO NOT ASSUME THE SAME AUTHORISATION APPLIES ACROSS COUNTRIES. THIS COULD LEAD TO AN INVALID PASSPORT AND AN OWNER BEING REFUSED ENTRY INTO A COUNTRY.

If in doubt contact the manufacturer as we have access to each individual country's authorisation and can give you definitive advice.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 22:35:03 GMT

The answer is very simple. The validity of the rabies vaccination for pet passport purposes depends on the validity of the rabies vaccine in the country it was given in. Nothing new here.

In Portugal, and many other European countries this is one year.

The validity written in the pet passport is the one you must go on. You must inform the client they are obliged to wait three weeks.

the vaccine you give in this country is valid, for UK pet passport purposes, for 3 years and you fill in the pet passport accordingly. BUT once resident in Portugal the animals become subject to Portuguese rules, and likely this will mean annual rabies injections regardless of what you put in the passport.

It is very unlikely anyone will check, and the animals pose no risk to anyone but rules are rules. If the client chooses to just go, that is up to them, but you cannot advise them it is OK.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 22:03:25 GMT

Good plan, not sure why I didn't think of that! I'll blame my long day driving son back to university. Thank you.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 22:00:14 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]I know the pets rules used to say it must be vaccinated according to the datasheet of the country of origin. I'm hoping this is the case but can I find out anywhere?[/quote]

I'd phone Merial re Rabisin licence in Europe.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 21:48:21 GMT

Can I tag onto this? My brother is importing a puppy from Prague which is vaccinated with a passport, and I have have seen a copy of it. The pup was vaccinated at 12 weeks of age with rabisin. Now our uk datasheet says minimum age 3 months (pup was born 2/6/14 and vaccinated 28/8/14). I have found one European datasheet that says any time from 11 weeks of age but that seems to be a Moroccan data sheet. I know the pets rules used to say it must be vaccinated according to the datasheet of the country of origin. I'm hoping this is the case but can I find out anywhere? I really wish he'd just get a uk dog, but there is no telling family sometimes! Thanks for any help, and sorry for lack of paragraphs.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Nicola Cole — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:38:44 GMT

I spoke to one of the drugs companies a little while back about this as a rabies vac had been given in the uk and dated for one year, but the data sheet from last year (as couldn't find up to date!) said 3 years-I phoned to check there had bee no recent change with that specific brand of vaccine. The drugs company said if given in the uk that brand was 3 years, but if given in some other european countries then only a year.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:45:23 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]

If they are vaccinated in a country where the datasheet says one year it is one year, full stop.

[/quote]

This might not be entirely correct. The manufacturer might have written 3 years but a country government might want to enforce more frequent vaccinations if they feel they are at risk of getting rabies in. Not because it would offer more protection, but because it might encourage more people that tend to 'forget' to get their pet vaccinated.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:37:46 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]I am still curious about the discrepancy with the validity date in the passport[/quote]

I would suspect Portugal requires by local law annual vaccination regardless of what the manufacturer may state, and so the sort of these two periods has been used?

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Sammy82 — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:55:11 GMT

If they are vaccinated in a country where the datasheet says one year it is one year, full stop. If in that country the datasheet said 5 years it would be 5 years, even for entering a country where the same vaccine has a shorter licence. This is politics/licencing and has little to do with common sense. It is as logical as immunity suddenly sharply declining after 365 days (not 364 or 366) and broached bottles of chemically totally different medicines suddenly going off on day 29.

Re: Rabies booster after more than 365 days, 3 weeks waiting?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:51:10 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Vaccine is only licensed for 1 year validity, but for the UK 3 years is official, can such cat then enter the |UK on a passport with validity expired, but according to UK rules the vaccination still valid? (Yes I can ask Defra, they may say go to the £199 CPD course)!

Mariette

[/quote]

If you have a passport that states 3 year validity for rabies, the passport is valid. Even if you go to Portugal. Even if their internal laws require an annual revaccination, they have to recognize (for travel purposes) that the UK vaccination and passport is in date. Travelling out? Well, if your passport is in date, that's acceptable for travel but if there's a law that mandates annual revacc, you're in a bit of a tricky area and it's probably better to revaccinate.

(I used to face this a lot when working outside the UK. Err on the side of caution.)