tortoise blood results interpretation

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 14:33:04 GMT

Marie... Thanks. You said it better than me..... Tortoises (and other reptiles) can present so late in the disease process that I just think that sometimes we can persevere with treatment for too long. They can take a very long time to die..... :-(

The problem with owners is that they can think tortoises are OK simply because they are still moving.....occasionally....

OP.... If the owners are considering PTS then give it serious consideration. This tortoise is not going to have an easy fix and will need owner commitment, both in time and money, for quite some time to get it better. They need to be fully on board.

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 14:27:41 GMT

No.... If there is concern about worm burden but no evidence then it needs a faecal egg count.

I only worm if there is a problem....never routinely.

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 13:17:48 GMT

Sorry to hijack the thread a little, but what is the normal protocol for worming tortoises?

I'm seeing a 13yo Male (?) Horsefield tortoise next week for health and weight check as the owner says it is due annual worming, but I was under the impression they don't need to be wormed unless infected?The tortoise is kept indoors in a viv with UV bulbs etc and doesn't hibernate.

Does this tortoise actually need worming?

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

HMC — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 12:00:09 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]If it was otherwise well [/quote]

She is otherwise well (walking around on consult table). The owner are thinking euthanasia and I am definitely thinking referral (or euth) - especially after reading the posts on here.

Regards adding in urea, I guess that could be done but I just want to refer her!

Thanks all.

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

Marie Kubiak — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 11:24:24 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Marie - as this tortoise is 75 and is likely to need surgery to diagnose/fix whatever the problem turns out to be, would you persevere?

[/quote]

If it was otherwise well (difficult without the history though) then I would - some come in pretty active and bright but not eating and there is light at the end of the tunnel then. If it was one of those floppy tortoises that comes in and needs a doppler to check if still with us then I wouldn't persevere! I think I'd base it on the general health of the case primarily - they can live longer than 75 and we've ex-lapped a few past their sell by date and been pleasantly surprised that they do as well as younger ones in equivalent health. However I think the really broken ones don't get euthanased early enough as being tortoises they quietly struggle on and don't clearly nosedive like mammals and birds do.

Marie

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 09:58:25 GMT

Marie - as this tortoise is 75 and is likely to need surgery to diagnose/fix whatever the problem turns out to be, would you persevere? (Not a flippant question - genuinely interested.) I know it is dependent on a lot of factors- the main ones being the commitment of the owner and previous and future husbandry being excellent- but I find that the prognosis in these animals is dreadful. Also, the illness has been developing so long that recovery is going to require feeding tube placement etc and considering that this tortoise is pretty much at its natural lifespan, I'm not sure I would be recommending surgery really.

But, then again.... I might.....

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

Marie Kubiak — Thu, 28 Aug 2014 17:52:29 GMT

Given the high Ca without phos elevation this tortoise has reproductive activity. Which is odd given it is nearly Autumn. I would be looking to scan to assess ovarian follicles and eggs (though I find mature eggs much easier to assess on rads). If you have retained, thick/multilaminate-shelled eggs, or multiple mature follicles >1cm diameter then I would be tempted to ex-lap. Follicular stasis drains protein stores, facilitates bacterial sepsis with copious growth medium sitting slowly breaking down, and gradually debilitates the tortoise. Egg retention has a less clear effect but is often seen in older tortoises and if it fails to respond to calcium and oxytocin therapy (or eggs are suspected to be adherent/excessively large/outside oviduct) then surgical removal is indicated.

The low WBC is very common and non specific. Most frequentl associated with poor husbandry or chronic illness but doesn't help much with making a diagnosis.

Any chance of getting a urea to give a better idea of hydration prior to support feeding/fluid therapy?

Marie

Re: tortoise blood results interpretation

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 28 Aug 2014 17:33:40 GMT

Difficult.... Fairly non specific but very sick tortoise changes. I would be worried that the high globulin + non-existant WBC may mean herpes? Also, low alb + high Ca ....worrying .... Poss neoplasia? TBH, apart from confirming that the tortoise has hepatic lipidosis (inevitable) and is very sick ('circling the drain') it doesn't give any definitive answers.

Any other obvious changes/symptoms? Have you done radiographs yet? What's the husbandry like?