Management of CKD in cats

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Julian Earl — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 13:31:54 GMT

Dripping taps tend to be popular with cats, so show them this in the bath or somewhere they can access easily. They seem to be like sheep and prefer running water.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 13:03:52 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]But seriously though, of the two cats I had growing up, one of them loved a fresh bowl of water, she would always turn up to drink from it as soon as you put it on the floor! (Can't remember if it was next to the food or not!)[/quote]

Yes, but was there an "old" bowl of water down as well?

This survey is so easy and could help a lot!

[/quote]

Yes, this was picking up a bowl of stale water (complete with bits of fluff etc floating on the top), chucking it away and refilling it with fresh. Without fail she would be there drinking from it as soon as it stopped slopping about! I always thought she was making her personal preference abundantly clear.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

ruths — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:14:51 GMT

Ebvm isn't about where an individual pice of research takes place. It's about having an open mind to look at all of the research that is available and to have the skills to evaluate each study so you can distill some meaning for your clinical situation. It's not to do with how to set up a piece of research- that's just applying scientific principles effectively.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:37:56 GMT

Yes, but was there an "old" bowl of water down as well?

This survey is so easy and could help a lot!

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:16:58 GMT

Well, you would need to have enough cats to correct for personal preference...

But seriously though, of the two cats I had growing up, one of them loved a fresh bowl of water, she would always turn up to drink from it as soon as you put it on the floor! (Can't remember if it was next to the food or not!)

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 11:23:15 GMT

No doubt some would claim that unless the experiment was carried out in a university, then it wouldn't be EBM

Wynne

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:35:19 GMT

Come on all you cat-owning, red-starring, aquaphobes or aquaphiles, get two identical bowls and do the water comparison and water bowl placement trials.

You can even have TLAs; WBP [water bowl placement] and WQT [water quality trial].

You can shoot me down, use TLAs and do some EBM all at the same time!

It should really get all you modvets beside yourself with righteous excitement

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 14:45:54 GMT

Why doesn't someone put two bowls down, one beside the food, one as far as possible away from it.

Then do one with really fresh and one with "old" with a dusty film on top......

Then put the two bowls side by side near the food, then the two bowls away from the food....

Then one bowl red and one bowl green?

How many people and bowls do we need before it's "evidence"?

Not actually being flippant, we might learn a trick. [well the colour thing was a bit]

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 14:35:56 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

I remember being told a while back that the water bowl should be some distance from the food, as apparently cats don't like to drink from a water source close to the food. (NB I have absolutely no idea if this is evidence based or not!)

[/quote]

I've mentioned this to a few clients who have been worried that their cat isn't drinking enough, and suggested they move the water bowl to the other side of the room.This is obviously just anecdote but I have had a couple of clients say they have noticed their cat drinking more after moving the water bowl. They've not changed the type of bowl and have still been filling it from the tap.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 13:41:00 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[/quote]

This may more be that cat's prefer standing water to fresh water, which it probably will be when placed close to food, or at least, fresher than flower vases, toilet bowls, fish ponds and the like which are usually not next to the cat's food.....

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Marek Dycjan — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 13:29:07 GMT

Anybody can validate that with some evidence?

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 12:19:24 GMT

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Christopher Saul — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 19:38:30 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Was this a trial of normal cats, or cats with CKD?[/quote]

This was a perfectly straight question, not sure why the red star

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 09:35:36 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Cats get most of their water from their natural diet which is fine if they are healthy but not so good if they have CKD. Trials show that cats given moist food with no access to water actually take more water on board than those fed dry food with ad lib access to water.

[/quote]

Was this a trial of normal cats, or cats with CKD?

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:59:44 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]It's a matter of comfort and environmental enrichment[/quote]

Good answer to your sober friends.....

Try saying it quickly after your second glass of ALDI chianti [£8.95 so it must be good]

and it is!

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 09:20:22 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

For some reason that I've never understood cats prefer novel sources of water like dripping taps or dirty drains to a bowl of fresh standing water hence the need to provide alternative sources.

[/quote]

It's a matter of comfort and environmental enrichment - it's more interesting to drink from unusual or moving things, or even water that tastes funny/unusual. You also often find that older cats prefer drinking from elevated sources of water, because an old arthritic, rheumatic cat doesn't like squatting down to drink. My old cat (with my sister now) loves drinking from a thick glass german beer stein; the glass is too heavy to tip over accidentally (unlike a pint glass), and can sit down comfortably next to it, lean over and drink.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

ruths — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 23:07:30 GMT

Hi Anthony- sorry, been busy! It's an essential fatty acid... When I'm on a proper computer ( not just my phone), I'll find the paper and send it on..

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 16:47:57 GMT

Ruths, got the abstract, finally, but what's this....?

.....except that the most effective diet had a particularly high content of eicosapentaenoic acid.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:34:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

The chlorination theory falls down when they will drink from a dripping tap.

[/quote]

True, perhaps it's the only source of water?

Theories then please.....

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 10:58:11 GMT

The chlorination theory falls down when they will drink from a dripping tap.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 10:04:07 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]For some reason that I've never understood cats prefer novel sources of water like dripping taps or dirty drains to a bowl of fresh standing water hence the need to provide alternative sources. [/quote]

+1. I assumed it was the chlorination which gradually "evaporated" [my chemistry/physics never was much]. That's why it's impossible to get an idea of a cat's water consumption unless they are kept in and toilet lids are kept down, flower pots dry and dripping taps fixed.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 09:47:52 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Not so - because cats don't like to drink

Wynne

[/quote]just so. Cats get most of their water from their natural diet which is fine if they are healthy but not so good if they have CKD. Trials show that cats given moist food with no access to water actually take more water on board than those fed dry food with ad lib access to water. For some reason that I've never understood cats prefer novel sources of water like dripping taps or dirty drains to a bowl of fresh standing water hence the need to provide alternative sources.

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Anthony Todd — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 09:43:49 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"] unless you're feeding it soup it will need to drink more water than is in its diet.[/quote]

At last someone understands......

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 09:34:40 GMT

Not so - because cats don't like to drink

Wynne

Re: Management of CKD in cats

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 08:44:15 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]and they appear to automatically correct for the amount of water in their food.[/quote]

Er, not if the food is mixed with water or "wet"; they have to take the extra water to get the food.....

That's why I think any analysis of diet must include the way and amount of water supplied 'cos, I think we all will agree. cats won't drink more water than they feel they need, which has nothing to do with the state of their kidneys AFAIK.

[/quote]

But how much water they need will have everything to do with the state of the kidneys. A cat with chronic renal disease can only produce isosthenuric urine, unless you're feeding it soup it will need to drink more water than is in its diet. A cat with kidney disease on a dry diet will drink more than a cat with kidney disease on a wet diet, but the total water intake, including that from food, will be about the same.