Embryotomies

Re: Embryotomies

Julian Earl — Wed, 27 Aug 2014 10:27:03 GMT

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]

There are a couple of practical tips I can give:

1) To help protect the cow when using embryotomy wire, get some cheap hose pipe and once the wire is in place then pass a length of hose pipe cut to length over each of the wire ends so that the end of each length of hose is tight up aginst the calf and you've got enough length outside the cow to give continuous protection but enough exposed wire length for you to saw. Once you start sawing the calf, the wire will cut through the hose pipe on the inside away from the cow but the outer part stays intact and better protects the cow and anybody who has an arm inside at the same time. Make sure whoever is holding the hose pie lengths in place doesn't wrap their fingers totally around the hose pipe in case they get cut fingers!

Sometimes crossing the wires also helps to keep the wire away from the cow too.

2) Long saw pulls are much more efficient than short and rapid changes of direction that just leave you knackered.

I hope that helps but hopefully you won't have to do too many

Cheers

Roger

First comment: dead/emphysematous calf? Either the calf comes out easily or it doesn't come out at all, and the cow is emergency cuilled. I have wasted nights, and most of a day trying to remove these whwn newly qualified,only to have the cow die of toxaemia in 24 hours, and feel like I was about to die myself. I nowadays always tell my new employees to warn farmers immediately re the cull advantages, because I think the ones I did, quite a few sadly! were the worst jobs I've ever done.If you must start one, make sure you have at least 12 bottles of lubigel handy.

[/quote]

Otherwise, Re, hosepipe. It is possible to find hosepipe of slightly rigid plastic. Use this instead of an expensive metal embryotome. The latter can be very difficult for threading the wire, impossible to clean the insides of all the tissue and fur debris afterwards. Hosepipe has a larger diameter centre[ calibre?] for threadingthe wireand importantly are disposable after single use; disposable if you simply cut a length of two to fourfeet each time. Being slightly rigid, then the portion can be inserted to the correct depth to reach the calf's neck/leg or necessary bit You can leave maybe 30cm protruding from the vulva for someone to hold and maintain the correct depth. . I wouldn't recommend using a long pipe meaning you have to cut through the pipe itself as well as the calf's body [as someone suggested up there^. . 1. There is no friction from the inside of the plastic or rubber tubing, so the wire won't cut through, and 2, you'll waste your energy, not cutting through! 3. The pipe section in hside the vagina protects the cow. You can use a section perhaps 30-50cm for embryotmies in ewes, the same way.

Re: Embryotomies

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 23:42:56 GMT

[quote user="karen jones"]Like j lube but end up picking it off arms for while afterwards and difficult to get rid of

[/quote]

Wear gloves. I put an arm length gloves on with a nitrile glove over the top.

Filthy otherwise (for both your and the cow/sheep's protection

Re: Embryotomies

karen jones — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:27:56 GMT

Like j lube but end up picking it off arms for while afterwards and difficult to get rid of

Re: Embryotomies

Sammy82 — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:39:18 GMT

Yuk!

Re: Embryotomies

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:44:44 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I tried eating the liver from an embryotomised calf once. It was horrible.

[/quote]

I wonder if that's because it hasn't been used by the calf having been bypassed for all the time its been in the uterus? I rather like calves liver, it must have been very disappointing.

[/quote]

Yes, that was my conclusion. It was solid and almost fibrous, and tasteless.

Re: Embryotomies

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:40:06 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I tried eating the liver from an embryotomised calf once. It was horrible.

[/quote]

I wonder if that's because it hasn't been used by the calf having been bypassed for all the time its been in the uterus? I rather like calves liver, it must have been very disappointing.

Re: Embryotomies

David Shepherd — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:56:24 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Get a vink and get a lube pump or giant lube syringe. Don't be afraid to put 10-20 L of lube in to help manipulate and get things out.

[/quote]

J-lube is your friend. A small amount goes a long way and can make up a bucketfull of wallpaper paste.

(be kind to your boss and don't go mad - it's expensive)

[/quote]

Or be kind to the cow and your boss and charge it to the farmer!

Re: Embryotomies

David Shepherd — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:50:09 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Depends on the degree of embryotomy you have in mind. I'm quite happy chopping various bits off, but to break down a full calf can take longer and be more traumatic than a caesarian. With good technique you can do caesarians successfully with dead calves. Low, large incision - exteriorise uterus and thoroughly lavage abdomen. It;s not worth spending 2 hours cutting up the calf when you can ceaser in an hour.

The main embryotomoies I do:

ALWAYS give an epidural with some xylazine (4.5ml local and 0.5ml xylazine a good mix) and clenbuterol (preferably IV).

ALWAYS be sure the calf is dead. Not as easy as it sounds.

Head out and legs back

All I do with these is a standard head loop and apply firm traction with the jack so as to cut off as much calf as possible. Repel with your hand over the stump and you will have a lot of space to sort the legs.

Front legs available, but head back

You really need a Roberts embryotomoy knife but can improvise with scissors if you must. Make an incision through the skin with a scalpel ~10cm long over dorsal carpus. Use your fingers to blunt dissect some space. Ideally using the Roberts knife place the beak in the cut and push forwards to over the shoulder (as far forwards as you can). Force your fingers under the skin all around the leg and up to the shoulder. You need skin separated from underlying limb as far up as you can manage. Only once the skin is dissected right up the leg cut the skin circumferentially around the lower limb. Use the calving jack to apply firm traction to the limb and it will pull away at the shoulder. You need to remove the scapula to narrow the diameter of the calf.

Repeat for the other leg and then you have loads of space. Much easier if the calf has been dead 24 hours plus but can be done if freshly dead/euthanased. You can improvise the Roberts knife using scissors and I place my finger between the handles to create a 'beak'

Calf half out and stuck at the hips

These carry a poor prognosis due to pressure on the obturator nerve.

Again attach the jack and have a pull. some seem to free themselves whilst waiting for you to get there. Techniques for rolling the cow over etc have been tried (along with twisting the calf) but I found them giving limited success and I came to the conclusion I was wasting time with pressure on the nerves. With pressure on the jack cut the calf through the trunk as close to the vulva as possible. You need a weight to pass the wire- a large bull ring will do, but a specific double loop is better and invaluable if doing many.

Pass the ring over the top of the calf's rump and feed it down between the back legs. This is crucial that you push it down as far as you can. Replace your arm ventrally and reach from the ring/loop passer. You need something you can hook a finger into. That bit takes from 10 seconds to 2 hours! Not always easy. Get farmer to saw through the calf's pelvis and then repel one half and they usually come out without any additional aids.

Gentle warnings

If you decide to cut anything off traction helps to allow you to remove as much as possible.

If you are not making any progress in 10 minutes - do something different.

If you decide to remove hind legs because everything dry make sure you have a suitable anal hook to remove the calf.

Some of these are so bad and you are making no progress then slaughter or caeser may be the only option.

Good kit makes ALL the difference. Clean everything as soon as you can and ALWAYS on the farm!

Using a stomach pump and a bucket of warm water + lube can help you get some extra space and help prevent damage to the cow.

If you put your hand in and you even slightly think you can feel any damage for the farmers efforts mention it at that point.

Goes with the above, but examine uterus carefully for tears (90%+ are dorsal).

I will often lavage uterus afterwards with warm water and iodine. A minimum of 5 days antibiotics and a couple of shots of NSAID a must.

Hope that helps

[/quote]

I think Michael has said all that needs to be said here. My own experience is also that it is almost always better for all concerned to proceed quickly to a caesarean, and probably less expensive as well, if you are charging properly for your time doing the embryotomy. Several times I have thought "I wish I had caesared this in the first place", only rarely have I thought "I wish I hadnt started this caesar", and then it was usually "I wish I had shot this before I started". In the case of dead emphysematous calves it is very difficult to get enough access to cut off significant bits, and you are probably better for all concerned just to shoot the cow.

The one exception, in my opinion, is the calf stuck at the hips and dead, when it is almost always quicker, and always better for the cow to split the calf across the middle then pass a wire between the legs and split the pelvis, as described above. I have never found it necessary to take any special precautions with the wire as it immediately cuts into the dead calf anyhow if you cross the wires in front of you before you start.

Good luck!

David

Re: Embryotomies

Roger Meacock — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:03:20 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Roger - when I saw you had replied I was expecting you to suggest gathering up the pieces to feed the inpatients or something [/quote]

Lol now there's a business idea - we could have a whole network of RMB outlets ... not!! I can't believe you tried a liver of one Evelyn - I'm surpised you didn't get food-poisoning ... or did you?! I've heard of people feeding their pets on road kill and even someone doing it for themselves on TV last year but that's a few steps too far for me!

Best

Roger

Re: Embryotomies

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 17:00:00 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Roger - when I saw you had replied I was expecting you to suggest gathering up the pieces to feed the inpatients or something [/quote]

I tried eating the liver from an embryotomised calf once. It was horrible.

Re: Embryotomies

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 13:28:26 GMT

Roger - when I saw you had replied I was expecting you to suggest gathering up the pieces to feed the inpatients or something

The Kray hooks are not an essential, but sometimes come into their own when you have a 'lump' you need to grab hold of. I've used them on sectioned hind quarters to hold something. Also use them on mushy heads - into the eye sockets etc to bring things into position - especially if so mushy the eye hooks keep pulling out.

It's about always having a plan B, then plan C, then plan D etc. Goes back to me saying - no progress in 10 mins - do something different.

Re: Embryotomies

Roger Meacock — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 13:02:44 GMT

There are a couple of practical tips I can give:

Sometimes crossing the wires also helps to keep the wire away from the cow too.

2) Long saw pulls are much more efficient than short and rapid changes of direction that just leave you knackered.

I hope that helps but hopefully you won't have to do too many

Cheers

Roger

Re: Embryotomies

Fable — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 11:58:55 GMT

Wow, thanks for all the fantastic replies! Fortunately, I have been given lots of shiny new equipment to use (a luxury I've never had before!), it is now just getting the chance to practice using it. Knowing where to make the cuts is my main concern and personally I would rather be doing a caesarean where possible. [quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Self-closing Hook

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=228&product_id=1032

If you are doing embryotomies you need one of these. For grabbing 'stuff'. Helpful if you need a bit of traction on a bit you have cut off. I've placed the hooks in the eye sockets of decomposing calves before now.

[/quote] Interesting that you recommend a Krey hook, as one of my new colleagues was of the opinion that they are useless!

Re: Embryotomies

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 11:57:28 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]And thanks Michael for the bull nose ring idea. Maybe try a rumen magnet to help retrieve it once it is dangling underneath, just out of reach![/quote]

In desperation once I borrowed a 32mm spanner from the farmer (that's one for undoing 32mm nuts not a tiny little spanner) and tied the wire to the ring and used that between the calf's legs. I ached for 2 days after that one!

Re: Embryotomies

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 09:56:18 GMT

Else whoever's sawing may perform a backward somersault which would guarantee gold in the Olympics

Wynne

Re: Embryotomies

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 09:44:47 GMT

PS And don't buy cheap embryotomes or cheesewire!

Mariette

Re: Embryotomies

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 09:42:23 GMT

My tuppence: YES J lube or if you don't have it then use vaseline, no use for the watery lambing lube except to fill up in the uterus, passed the foetus.

Yes finger knife and working inside the calve's skin. However long it takes, you are safe and the cow's uterus is safe because the calve's skin protects her.

And I always use the uterus relaxer planipart or dupharpasmin or whatever it is called by brand. And good painkillers for the cow to be comfortable.

And then just patience.

Also support the caesarian anyway option. Wound healing often delayed and fertility afterwards dubious, but worth to consider.

And thanks Michael for the bull nose ring idea. Maybe try a rumen magnet to help retrieve it once it is dangling underneath, just out of reach!

Mariette

Re: Embryotomies

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 16:57:37 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Get a vink and get a lube pump or giant lube syringe. Don't be afraid to put 10-20 L of lube in to help manipulate and get things out.

[/quote]

J-lube is your friend. A small amount goes a long way and can make up a bucketfull of wallpaper paste.

(be kind to your boss and don't go mad - it's expensive)

Re: Embryotomies

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 16:56:22 GMT

Neil - my first choice would always be to return the head and do as you say. The ones that make me nervous are the ones where they are dead, smelly and the uterus clamped down. I worry about the usterus having sufficient 'give' to allow the head to be replaced. I can also think of a few cases where the head is just so swollen it won't go back with my whole bodyweight against it! Chop a lot of heads off lambs as sheep don't seem quite so robust if you push stuff back.

First choice is not to cut the calf up. I should perhaps have said this. The epidural/clenbuterol facilitates pushing the head back.

Re: Embryotomies

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 15:44:31 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Head out and legs back

[/quote]

Not sure sure I'd do this as the head is connected to the body and with a head rope on the calf is easier to get out as following the line of the spine. I'd put a head rope on, get the head back into the uterus (takes some pushing and then get a front leg out and take this off.) Michaels idea will work for most but my worst dead calf scenario was on Dartmoor when the farmer had already kindly taken the head off and that was some battle as with a rotting calf with the head off, those front legs have a habit of pulling out of the cow without the rest of the body, so you're left with a calf inside with no head and no legs to pull with.

Neil

Re: Embryotomies

James Laidlaw — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:39:35 GMT

Get a vink and get a lube pump or giant lube syringe. Don't be afraid to put 10-20 L of lube in to help manipulate and get things out.

Re: Embryotomies

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:09:26 GMT

Suggested equipment:

Charles Roberts Embryotomy Knife

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=211&product_id=953

Basically a guarded blade. Cuts only in the opening of the 'beak'. Useful to remove front legs and great for caesarians, especially if opening the uterus inside the abdomen. I carry two sterile packed in the car.

Loop Passer

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=233&product_id=1072

Mainly for passing the loop of embryotomy wire between the back legs of the calf as in the above example, but also good if you have a head back you need to cut off to get the wire through the flexed neck. The weight and curve helps with retrieval of the loop.

Calving Chains

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=205&product_id=918

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=205&product_id=917

Leg chains have their uses but snap if used on a calving jack. The head chain is worth its weight in gold. The extra weight helps placement. Easy to clean in a bucket of warm water and disinfectant so can be used on another calving the same night/weekend.

Eye Hooks

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=228&product_id=1031

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=228&product_id=1049

Used in pairs. Ideally you'd have a blunt pair and a sharp pair - blunt are for use in live calves. Place both hooks in the same calving loop and place in medial canthus of the eye. I very very rarely use them in live calves, but they can allow you to get a head up that you can reach the eye sockets but not get a head rope or chain on. If living calf I just use them enough so that I can get the space to fit the chain over the head. A sharp hook can be used in the mandible of a dead calf to get the head forwards.

Anal Hook

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=228&product_id=1041

If you have a dead calf coming backwards and there is no space to bring up the legs. Cut them off and use the large hook in the calf's pelvis. Not used often, but can get you out of a nasty situation! I have also used them in cases where I've needed to section the back end of a calf and I cannot reach the ring between the back legs. Hook it into the pelvis from inside the calf's abdominal cavity (if that makes sense?)

Self-closing Hook

http://www.surgicalholdings.co.uk/veterinary/index.php?content=catalogue&cat_view=focus&category_id=14&sub_id=228&product_id=1032

The Vink calving jacks are the best available.

Re: Embryotomies

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 13:45:55 GMT