Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Kate Richardson — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 22:15:21 GMT

I would treat with a minimum 21 day continuous course of panacur.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:56:25 GMT

Is the puppy otherwise healthy and has developed well? If not and a bit runty might it be an idea to look at its B12? Is it actually still a puppy?

Mariette

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 00:05:11 GMT

I had a breeding kennel that got giardia in. We kept getting positive results from them and Idexx said that if you use PCR for testing you can get positive results for a while after apparent cure - it's almost too sensitive! I think it shows positive for bits of dead ones. However if the animal is not clinically getting better that is another story of course. I too wonder if there is something else concurrently.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 18:21:25 GMT

[quote user="Rebecca Benge"]However I feel the owner is losing patience with this after 3 months with no obvious improvement in the situation. [/quote]I would feel the offer of a referral coming on here before it goes to Anthony and he gives it some steroids which will clear it up for good because it might just be IBD and the Giardia is a red herring which come to think of it may be a good choice of novel protein if it is IBD.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 17:23:47 GMT

I can't comment on the tortoise thing as my knowledge is non existent too. But regarding the dog: Did you check if this is a re-infection or if the giardia never went away? I use fenbendazole 50mg/kg sid for ten days, then test again 3-5 days after ending treatment. Always test three different portions of stool mixed together (you could also do them separately of course, increases cost though). If negative and then relapse you have to find the source of the reinfection, if still positive you may need to change medication, i.e.. to metronidazole. Recent studies point out that metronidazole may not work as well as fenbendazole though I have been told. Plus it is toxic if you give too much. Wash and shampoo the rear end of the dog every day during treatment, clean garden from stool meticulously. Humans may be the source of re-infection but to my knowledge most giardia spp. in dogs are not zoonotic (at least in Europe). Where I live the most common source of re-infection are infested ponds (garden pond!!!!) and puddles. You may also want to look at other illnesses as most adult dogs tolerate giardia infections without severe symptoms, in contrast to puppies and geriatric patients which can become seriously ill.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 16:56:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Wow!, thanks Marie. My knowledge of reptilian parasitology has just increased by about 1,000%.That was heartfelt not sarcastic in case you were wondering.

[/quote]

Mine too is increased greatly I would leave the percentance out because 1000% of 0 remains zero...

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Rebecca MacMillan — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 10:01:09 GMT

Marie - we have done a basic faecal screen each time including culture and it has never been positive for salmonella or campylobacter. The tortoise oxyurid eggs only came up on one occasion last year.

Anthony - we have used metronidazole on previous bouts last year in this dog. But I think I was reading other giardia related posts on here and someone mentioned doing repeat panacur courses and faecal samples until the dog was negative. However I feel the owner is losing patience with this after 3 months with no obvious improvement in the situation. Think I will go for metronidazole again on this occasion.

I've never had a giardia case quite this persistent before!

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:47:24 GMT

Metronidazole as well?

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Marie Kubiak — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:28:19 GMT

Submit a sample from the tortoise for Giardia assessment to be absolutely sure but as your lab mentioned the likelihood of a cross-taxa jump is small. I can't help much with treating the dog I'm afraid so will defer to Martin's advice.

Have you looked for salmonella in the dog? Might be a co-infection and that bit could be the tortoise's fault!

Marie

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:50:41 GMT

Try metronidazole again.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Rebecca MacMillan — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:53:40 GMT

This case continues!!

The puppy initially responded to treatment last summer but then started having diarrhoea again in November 2014. We sent repeat faecal samples off and it came back positive for giardia again. Since then I have been doing 7 day courses of panacur every 3-4 weeks with faecal samples 10-14 days after treatment, and each time it comes back as positive for giardia!!! Sometimes there is some improvement in faeces, but on the whole things are never 100% normal.

What else can I do? Should I now consider treating the tortoise? Is the giardia secondary to a dietary issue and should I do a dietary trial?

Seriously... it's been 3 months of panacur treatment now, and nothing!!!

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:39:22 GMT

The tortoise probably has a nice stable flagellate population so if Giardia is part of that then it is likely to remain so. The risk of transmission from the tortoise is low, but obviously it's better to separate dog from tortoise faeces to remove a possible source and avoid salmonella infection too! Some bird Giardia spp. are host specific, some are capable of zoonotic infection. I don't know if the same applies to reptile Giardia though and can't find any useful data I'm afraid.

Can humans act as a reservoir of infection and potentially reinfect the dog?

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Rebecca MacMillan — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:55:10 GMT

I rang Idexx who's pathologist said pretty confidently that it wouldn't be coming from the tortoise. They seemed to think the giardia would be pretty host specific and that I should be looking elsewhere for the source!. This contradicts some things I've read on the internet about giardia and tortoises, but I'm presuming they should know! It's interesting that the owners daughter also had a bout of giardia before acquiring the puppy but whilst owning the tortoise, but they had been away to India and put it down to an infection caught whilst abroad...

I think if issues carry on with this pup I'll do as you say Bob and continue dosing with fenbendazole monthly until we get on top of it!

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 11:22:38 GMT

[quote user="Rebecca Benge"]

I'm not sure if this is a silly question, but can tortoises be carriers of giardia? The puppy was seemingly responding to treatment but now has bloody diarrhoea again!

We treated with panacur in the start of April, then metronidazole and panacur end of April, and then again a 7 day course of panacur on 9th June (after a second set of faecal samples were positive for giardia still). Reportedly puppy has been fine since then, but came in and saw a colleague yesterday with bloody D+ again. We also discussed rigorous cleaning of environment and bathing puppy etc. Of course this bout of D+ may be unrelated to giardia, but after the other tortoise parasite egg finding my colleague wondered if the tortoise could be a reservoir for giardia too?

[/quote]

Reinfection is common with giardia and it is a struggle to work out where they are picking it up. I tend to go for 7 days fenbendazole powder (Wormazole or Granofen because they are cheaper than Panacur) once a month until the dog tests negative. Never seen any side effects with fenbendazole in dogs or cats.

I have never needed to use metronidazole despite seeing plenty of dogs and cats with symptoms that test +ve. I was told that a common site for the parasite is bird baths!

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Rebecca MacMillan — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 09:37:55 GMT

I'm not sure if this is a silly question, but can tortoises be carriers of giardia? The puppy was seemingly responding to treatment but now has bloody diarrhoea again!

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Marie Kubiak — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 16:31:56 GMT

I like reptiles and parasites (and am going a little stir crazy off work... Think of this as care in the community)

Marie

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:14:17 GMT

Wow!, thanks Marie. My knowledge of reptilian parasitology has just increased by about 1,000%.That was heartfelt not sarcastic in case you were wondering.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Marie Kubiak — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 10:06:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Firstly, these may be normal finding in tortoises but there are many intestinal parasites that are a 'normal' finding in our companion pet's faeces. OK some of these have zoonotic and pathogenic potential, however we would not think of not routinely worming them so why would you not treat the tortoises once you know they have them? [/quote]

I was under the impression we treat pet cats and dogs routinely due to the zoonotic aspect, as clinical GI nematode endoparasitism is rare.

Presence of oxyurids in low levels has no deleterious effects in reptiles and in herbivorous species is speculated to be beneficial as adult oxyurid movements 'churn' high cellulose ingesta in an otherwise slow, low motility GIT improving digestibility. A well-evolved symbiotic relationship is only disrupted if the environment favours an alteration in host-parasite relationship and parasite numbers increase beyond normal levels.

Anthelmintics are not without risk. Avermectins are fatal in chelonia, idiosyncratic panleucopaenia is seen with fenbendazole in reptiles and less severe marrow suppression appears more common than in mammals, levamisole has a low toxicity threshold and emodepsid has limited therapeutic success. Hence only treating if pathogenic species are identified or, in the case of oxyurids, if high levels are present or clinical signs attributable to endoparasitism noted which are rare and often really due to unrelated disease.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Secondly, assuming that the ova have not passed straight through the dog's gut as I imagine they would otherwise have been digested, the oxyurid has gone through a life cycle and is producing ova which are then being excreted. How can we be sure they are not in some way pathogenic in the dog?[/quote]

The eggs have evolved to survive passage through a herbivore's GI tract, only hatching when conditions are correct so not surprising at all that they came through a less aggressively digesting dog GIT. Indeed we often pick up rodent Syphacia pinworm ova in snake faeces - no infestation just tough eggs that survive harsh conditions.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Thirdly, assuming 2 is true and a lack of hygiene in handling the tortoises, if oxyurid can infest dogs can they also infest humans and if so would we be so dismissive?[/quote]

Reptile oxyurids are distinct from mammalian ones, diverging early on in evolutionary history and they resemble invertebrate oxyurids more closely. With co-evolution of host and paraite over millenia they are highly host-specific, in most cases being adapted to a single genus or species and jumping entire taxa has not been demonstrated despite keeping the popularity of reptiles as pets in contact with humans and mammal pets. Plus I don't think 2 is true

Marie

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:14:41 GMT

A number of thoughts came to mind reading this thread.

Firstly, these may be normal finding in tortoises but there are many intestinal parasites that are a 'normal' finding in our companion pet's faeces. OK some of these have zoonotic and pathogenic potential, however we would not think of not routinely worming them so why would you not treat the tortoises once you know they have them?

Secondly, assuming that the ova have not passed straight through the dog's gut as I imagine they would otherwise have been digested, the oxyurid has gone through a life cycle and is producing ova which are then being excreted. How can we be sure they are not in some way pathogenic in the dog?

Thirdly, assuming 2 is true and a lack of hygiene in handling the tortoises, if oxyurid can infest dogs can they also infest humans and if so would we be so dismissive?

I'm not playing Devil's Advocate just genuinely inquisitive.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Rebecca MacMillan — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 08:58:57 GMT

Ok great! I was reading conflicting info (via google... my exotic manual wasn't particularly helpful), about whether oxyurid eggs were a normal finding or whether they needed treating. I'll discuss this with the owner and see what she thinks.

Re: Tortoise oxyurid ova? (found in the dogs faeces!)

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 22:26:06 GMT

Oxyurids are a fairly normal finding in tortoises- if the tortoises are clincally well there is rarely a need to treat. However, if faeces is left on grazing then high burdens can result and impaction is not unheard of. If the owner isn't great with clearing up then worth doing faecal egg counts for a rough guide to infection before deciding whether to treat or not.

Marie