Joint ill

RE: Joint ill

Rob Davis — Sun, 22 May 2016 21:34:18 GMT

As this thread has been resurrected I thought I'd post an update on Norbert. He's just turned 2 and as you can see has grown into a fine figure of a sheep! Many thanks to all who contributed previously.

RE: Joint ill

Seadna — Tue, 17 May 2016 22:23:02 GMT

A one-off injection of the long-acting macrolides would have huge appeal for my clients as a lot of them are farming part-time.

But yeah, I think the joint and to an extent the underlying bone is damaged very early in the infectious process and if missed or treated inappropriately the pathology is impossible to reverse :/

RE: Joint ill

Iain Richards — Tue, 17 May 2016 21:29:19 GMT

Ah, understood. One of the probelms is getting antibiotics in early enough before any joint damage kicks in. I've had very little success with isolating bacteria, even as soon as they are seen. I have a feeling that many infections are actually in the sub chondral bone, not the joint itself, and once established, the pathology takes over. Not sure macrolides are an improvement assuming no resistance to penicillins

RE: Joint ill

Seadna — Tue, 17 May 2016 19:07:50 GMT

Should have explained myself a bit, I'm at the end of a 7 day course of amoxicillin (first day always get a shot of dexamethasone) with no clinical improvement whatsoever. Want to switch to another antibiotic before giving up on the joint or suggesting flushing. Have had disappointing results with Tylan recently in similar situations. Don't want to start throwing around the macrolides because they are becoming dangerously popular with farmers around here. Lincocyn seems like a logical alternative, despite the unfortunate licencing issue.

RE: Joint ill

Iain Richards — Tue, 17 May 2016 09:04:02 GMT

Seadna, I'm with Michael on this, skip lincocin. My preference is daily synulox - also not licensed, but you do need amoxycillin for penetration for at least a week/10 days. I did try Tylan too once, seemed OK. The key is to have antibiotics for long enough. No they key is to ensure good colostru to the lamb!

RE: Joint ill

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 16 May 2016 20:43:57 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]Can I resurrect this thread to ask what dose rate of Lincomycin people use in a lamb with joint ill? [/quote]

We don't use it any-more due to licensing issues (i.e. its not!). Used to use the dog and cat dose rate. For lambs we use amoxycillin (LA) every other day and some dex. Seems to work well.

RE: Joint ill

Seadna — Mon, 16 May 2016 11:55:06 GMT

Can I resurrect this thread to ask what dose rate of Lincomycin people use in a lamb with joint ill?

And out of curiosity, in older animals, has anybody experienced the 'serious gastrointestinal disturbance' that can occur if it is used in ruminating animals? (I'm specifically reading the Lincoject 10% data sheet, obviously for the first time ever )

Re: Joint ill

bob lehner — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 15:19:26 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]I know, he's a bit pampered![/quote]

Since taking on a couple of bottle-lambs (now one and two years old) I have been amazed at what great pets sheep can make - far more inter-active and affectionate than any horse (or many cats for that matter).

Ours are spoilt rotten - they come into the stable every night - they hate getting wet and baa pitifully at the gate to come in whenever it rains. Love being groomed and will play hide-and-seek in the barn - they definitely seem to have a sense of humour.

We walked them down the lane to the farm next door to be sheared last week. My wife told the shearers in no uncertain terms that they must treat them very gently - and then coo-ed over them during the whole process - great hilarity all round from the somewhat less-than-sentimental Welsh farmer/shearers.

This is George singing along whilst having his back rubbed (best with the sound turned up). And no - he hasn't got sheep scab before anyone suggests it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfP_THQEXes

Re: Joint ill

Rob Davis — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 14:01:18 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Bliley, I wonder how many of those I could do an hour. What was your post-op pain relief regime?

[/quote]

I know, he's a bit pampered! Single injection of metacam given on induction, didn't appear to need anything after that!

Re: Joint ill

james herriot lied — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 21:02:07 GMT

Bliley, I wonder how many of those I could do an hour. What was your post-op pain relief regime?

Re: Joint ill

Alan Tevendale — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 14:43:39 GMT

Glad to hear Norbert is doing so well. I know of several vets, anaesthetists included, that have really struggled with intubation in sheep - something I that have never tried myself.

Re: Joint ill

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 14:16:57 GMT

excellent

Re: Joint ill

Rob Davis — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 13:23:53 GMT

Norbert's castration has now been done. He did cause some amusement as he trotted into the waiting room on a lead to be weighed, ignoring the waiting dogs! IV catheter easy to place in cephalic, diazemuls gave good sedation followed by ketamine induction. I tried and failed to intubate (though I didn't try for very long as was only going to be a short procedure). Maintained with O2/isoflourane via mask. Open castration via single scrotal incision, ligated and closed with intradermal vicryl.

He was up and eating grass very quickly and has now happilly returned to the rest of the flock, where I guess he will now stay for several years!

Re: Joint ill

james herriot lied — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 18:54:19 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

where would you go for IV access in a lamb?

[/quote]

The large animal practice up the road? But if you're determined, the jugular. Best of luck.

Re: Joint ill

Rob Davis — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 16:00:11 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]There is a decent 'In Practice' article with doses of sedatives etc for small ruminants.[/quote]

Thanks for that - I have printed this article off and will read it tonight. This is prabably a stupid question, but where would you go for IV access in a lamb? Would you go for jugular, or is cephalic practical?

Re: Joint ill

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:33:47 GMT

I'm not worried about the cut and pull method in cats. It's how I was taught as a student seeing practice, and the first place I worked did it that way. It's clearly an accepted method in use in this country. It is perfectly defensible. (I give them anaesthetic, don't just stuff them in a welly)

It's a funny old world where we just crush a horses testicle with an emasculator. I've castrated maybe a dozen donkeys and there is a rumour they are more likely to bleed so I use the emasculator and a catgut ligature. Never had a problem in either a horse or a donkey.

[quote user="David Mills"]It's weird isn't it that farm vets still dabble in SA surgery? Can you imagine the reverse ever happening? Is it because it happens behind closed doors I wonder?[/quote]

It's funny that I can think of many, many more examples of small animal vets being on a mixed animal rota who go out and do half a dozen calvings, cow caesers and prolapsed uteruses per year and do a good job, than farm vets 'dabbling' in small animal surgery!

Our practice is perhaps bizarre in that I do almost no small animal consulting and little routine neutering, but do the more complex, less routine small animal ops. I'm the only one of us doing any orthopaedics/dental flaps etc. I do enjoy surgery and it is something farm vets don't get to do a lot of.

The vast majority of sheep I castrate have a single abscessed testicle and I remove them with local anaesthetic and either the emasculator (if brought to the surgery) or the double clamp and tie technique.

Re: Joint ill

David Mills — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 20:35:26 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]And I thought I was a dinosaur.[/quote]

Back way back when I did mixed practice, the nurses and us more informed SA vets used to do everything we could to stop the farm vets 'dabbling' in SA work. Especially cat castrates and dentals.

The testicular artery in cats, and most species, connects directly to the aorta. There was a cat that died from internal bleeding following the pull method. To me, that is unforgivable given the known risks. Anyone carrying out the method who suffers such complications I would sincerely hope wouldn't de defended by the VDS.

It's weird isn't it that farm vets still dabble in SA surgery? Can you imagine the reverse ever happening? Is it because it happens behind closed doors I wonder?

Re: Joint ill

james herriot lied — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 20:23:03 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="james herriot lied"]Avoid the pulling technique - whilst it works well and is extremely fast for doing large numbers (still happens occasionally), there's still a risk of haemorrhage - and would you do cats the same way? [/quote]

That's how I castrate cats!

[/quote]

And I thought I was a dinosaur.

+1 for care with xylazine in sheep. I wouldn't be too worried about open castration, even now. Wet is the big enemy, not sunshine in a clean home environment. Treat it like a large cat.

Re: Joint ill

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 17:49:29 GMT

That's how I castrate cats!

As long as you get an elastic recoil it's fine, if you hold just the testicle then you can just snap off and get some bleeding. It's something that used to happen occasionally, but I'm guessing my technique has improved as not for ages.

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Many thanks for all the advice. Any drugs/doses for sedation. Any reason not to take him into the surgery and do it there under ketamine/xylazine (doses?). At least if I can do it under sterile conditions and close the wound then there should be less risk of fly strike or infection.[/quote]

Quite. I did a calf hernia in theatre beginning of this week, for similar reasons.

Doses from the Cathy Clarke, 'Veterinary Anaesthesia' book. There is a decent 'In Practice' article with doses of sedatives etc for small ruminants. Take care giving xylazine IV as odd ones die.

I will send a PM!

Re: Joint ill

Rob Davis — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:51:06 GMT

Many thanks for all the advice. Any drugs/doses for sedation. Any reason not to take him into the surgery and do it there under ketamine/xylazine (doses?). At least if I can do it under sterile conditions and close the wound then there should be less risk of fly strike or infection.

Re: Joint ill

james herriot lied — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 10:01:08 GMT

Michael's given you the info, but perhaps from a vet to farmer POV, rather than to a small animal with curious and attached kids POV!

Avoid the pulling technique - whilst it works well and is extremely fast for doing large numbers (still happens occasionally), there's still a risk of haemorrhage - and would you do cats the same way? I find a fair proportion of them also go off and look pitiful for an hour or so, during which time the kids will form a whole new opinion of daddy's veterinary capabilities.

Clamp and tie off with catgut as you would normally, then keep clean and blood free with twice daily cleaning and plenty of blue spray. It's dirt and dead tissue which attracts flies and with this great weather we're having, crack on now and it'll be fine.

Re: Joint ill

Alan Tevendale — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 23:26:25 GMT

Michael gives a fairly good roundup of the techniques you could use. Can't really add much to that.

There seem to be a fair number of different LA techniques as well. Some go for intratesticle, some into the neck of the scrotum and some both. Everyone says their technique works.

Re: Joint ill

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:07:51 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]So how and when is it best to castrate him?[/quote]

A month ago! Your biggest problem now will be flies.

The technique is simple, local anaesthetic (+/- sedation), clip if hairy and then either

1. tear none vascular pole and pull downwards in a bold, fluid motion (grasping the testicle as high as you can) - elastic recoil providing haemostasis

2. catgut ligature, double clamp and tear between

3. emasculator (as you would for equine castration), 1 minute plenty long enough.

Is he vaccinated for clostridia? I'd make sure he'd had course of vacc first. Given the farm conditions I often give shot of antibiotic and always NSAID.

You could go IV ketamine/xylazine and surgically close the wound afterwards, if you can achieve asepsis on small animal level.

Re: Joint ill

Linda Filshie — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:28:17 GMT

2.5 months ago with an elastrator

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Been out of LA practice so long that I'm of no practical help but I'm glad to hear Norbert is doing well.

Re: Joint ill

Rob Davis — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:24:46 GMT

Update: Norbert (!) has done very well. He is now approximately 10 weeks old and although he is still considerably smaller than all the other lambs, he is very happy. It is becoming increasingly clear that he will have a longer life than his siblings and cousins.... While I am open to the possibility of Norbert staying with us, he testicles definitely can't!

So how and when is it best to castrate him?