Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 17:48:43 GMT

I cannot see the point in the RCVs going as far as prosecution. It would cost a lot of money and is more likely to backfire on the profession unless some real injury is caused.

I am sure Trading Standards would be quite happy to discuss the term 'to veterinary standard' unless a veterinary surgeon was in charge of the procedure. I have staff that scale and polish really well but it is always under my supervision and control!

Even if the perpetrator is a VN, it is not to veterinary standards and without a g/a and proper work up it never can be!

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 16:11:28 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I struggle to see why use of a mechanical scaler is not an act of surgery.[/quote]

I agree that I think it should be. However, it is the law that counts here. Some will be old enough to recall the nonsensical debate around the time that some in the VN training industry were trying to build their part by "mis-representing" and "over-interpreting" Schedule 3 of the VS act. To cut a long story shorter, the question arose as to whether VNs could be allowed to do "minor procedures" including "routine dentistry" (don't shoot the messenger!!) minor stitch-ups and cat castrations. Much hot air followed from both sides and a settlement of sorts arose around the concept of "minor" procedures being those that didn't require entry into a body cavity. I think the thrust was to find a form of words that allowed VNs to do stitch ups, dental hygiene and cat castrations but stopped them short of doing spays etc. That lasted until some anatomy pedant pointed out that cat castration involves entry into a body cavity. Some of use who spend days repairing fractures, replacing joints and decompressing spines without entering a body cavity would have been a little perturbed to discover our entire specialty re-defined as "minor procedures".

I would love to see these pseudo-vets stopped but equally, I don't want my retention fees spent on quixotic prosecutions. Anyone who thinks differently is free to make a complaint and start the prosecution themselves - some of us might even contribute to the fighting fund.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 15:57:45 GMT

James You are factually correct in stating that you have no direct jurisdiction over lay people, but factually incorrect in your implication that you are therefore impotent in this matter.

It is one of the stated aims of Royal College to "protect the health and welfare of animals" Prosecuting criminals who break the law by diagnosing or treating injuryor disease in animals when not on the register is covered by this Charter function.

Royal Colege (like every other individual or organisation in this country) has a legal right to carry out a private prosecution.

Why doesn't it?

Wynne

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 15:56:09 GMT

I struggle to see why use of a mechanical scaler is not an act of surgery. Ok to muck up your own pets teeth by cooking the pulp but clearly prosecutable if caught.

A properly worded warning from the Royal College should stop even 'cosmetic' scaling once the potential risks are clearly stated. A wimpish half measure suggesting the scaler may get a slap on the back of the hand with a feather duster if caught probably would not be effective.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:30:33 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Is it wielding a toothbrush (good IMO) or wielding a £90 ebay ultrasonic scaler capable of damaging (drilling holes) in the enamel?[/quote]

Sadly, I suspect that there is nothing they could do about the ebay scaler. Under the animal welfare act, anyone with responsibility for an animal's welfare has a duty of care to protect that welfare. In law, it is difficult to see how any prosecution could succeed unless harm is done, and proved.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 09:22:18 GMT

Hopefully the RCVS will define 'simple cleaning process'.

Is it wielding a toothbrush (good IMO) or wielding a £90 ebay ultrasonic scaler capable of damaging (drilling holes) in the enamel?

I wonder!

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 00:53:32 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="James Allsop"]

the RCVS has no jurisdiction over lay people. In addition, where there are welfare concerns, these may be reported to either the Police or the RSPCA.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

[/quote]

So the RCVS's only job is to strike vets off.

***

Thank you for your attention

[/quote]

To be fair to Belgravia House, they did say:

[quote user="James Allsop"]We will contact Muckypups directly to provide advice.[/quote]

I'd love to see what they wrote to Samantha! If that letter of advice was well framed, it could constitute just the "leaning on" that's needed.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 22:45:55 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]How do you protect yourself from the Aussie 'if not an exlap then steroid' tragedy?[/quote]

Don't forget the Ovarid

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 19:01:13 GMT

[quote user="James Allsop"]

the RCVS has no jurisdiction over lay people. In addition, where there are welfare concerns, these may be reported to either the Police or the RSPCA.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

[/quote]

So the RCVS's only job is to strike vets off.

***

Thank you for your attention

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

James Allsop — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:28:08 GMT

Reply from RCVS:

As you are aware, the Veterinary Surgeons Act restricts the practice of veterinary surgery to qualified veterinary surgeons, with some exceptions.

The matter of dentistry has recently been considered by the Standards Committee and it was considered that simple cleaning procedures may be carried out by lay people such as groomers, but they may not undertake sub-gingival procedures. I attach a copy of the statement recently approved by the Standards Committee.

If unqualified persons are practising veterinary surgery, this is a matter to be reported to Trading Standards, as the RCVS has no jurisdiction over lay people. In addition, where there are welfare concerns, these may be reported to either the Police or the RSPCA.

We will contact Muckypups directly to provide advice.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

James Allsop — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:28:02 GMT

Reply from RCVS:

As you are aware, the Veterinary Surgeons Act restricts the practice of veterinary surgery to qualified veterinary surgeons, with some exceptions.

We will contact Muckypups directly to provide advice.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 11:38:26 GMT

Chris Your posting falls a long way short of "We will definitely prosecute this criminal" which is what I want to see.

Wynne

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Emily Rainbow — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 07:44:00 GMT

I've seen the same website/ list of services on the notice board of a local practice James. Had a nice discussion with some of the nurses about it but they didn't have the authority to take it down apparantly!

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Anthony Dennison — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 22:43:35 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]How do you protect yourself from the Aussie 'if not an exlap then steroid' tragedy?[/quote]

*Sits back in anticipation with a big tub of popcorn*

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

David Mills — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 22:35:45 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]How does a member of the public differentiate between a knowledgable vet and an ignorant one?[/quote]

At risk of forum drift, a great (ethical) point this.

Because:

<5% of vets self-audit
CPD is self-avowed
Like drivers, all vets think they're above average - drivers asked to rate themselves meant 95% of the country are 'above average'
Anecdote is the rule

So, as a MOP, no idea about animal disease, how do you know?

How do you protect yourself from the Aussie 'if not an exlap then steroid' tragedy?

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 18:33:05 GMT

We had a groomer / Hydrotherapist / anal sac emptier and nail clipper start pulling teeth a few years ago . I could never find out whether she was doing it before or after swimming them ?? We had a few turn up with the crowns cracked off, took some pictures ,nothing ever came of it . One or two clients grumbled , i told them to contact the royal college of sac emptiers otherwise known as trading standards .

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Chris Barker — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 13:32:49 GMT

The following draft was agreed by the Standards Committee (subject to certain changes) in January this year, (http://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/standards-committee-papers-january-2014) minutes of which meeting passed through Council in March and were accepted. Some wording will be changed when the final document appears (we wanted the 'responsibilities under the Veterinary Surgeons Act' made clearer and put in 'general public speak - as they have none...they just should not be doing it...) Therefore Prof Conduct has this as an (almost) agreed position for the RCVS from which they will give advice and against which they will consider any action necessary if these matters are brought to their attention. So please do

A Statement on “Anaesthesia-Free Dental Procedures” for Cats & Dogs

The RCVS Standards Committee supports the following statement due to the animal welfare issues associated with anaesthesia free dental procedures for cats and dogs.

Oral diseases (including dental and periodontal disease) represent some of the most common and important health issues affecting pets in the UK and Europe. Effective treatment is an important part of healthcare. A professional dental examination and cleaning (“scaling and polishing”) forms an essential part of treatment.

The most important area to examine and clean effectively is the gingival sulcus or periodontal pocket. This is the area below the gum line surrounding the teeth. The delicate periodontal tissues attaching the tooth to the jaws are easily damaged. This can then result in pain and possible tooth loss. Tooth scaling requires the use of sharp instruments and/or ultrasonic or sonic scalers cooled by water jets. Small, uncontrolled movements of the head during effective tooth scaling could easily lead to periodontal damage. Cleaning below the gum line is always uncomfortable. It is possible to perform scaling without anaesthesia in man, as we willingly co-operate. Pets not under anaesthetic usually will not willingly remain stationary whilst the procedure is performed.

Simply removing the visible calculus (tartar) from above the gum line is not effective or useful in tackling dental disease. The process simply makes the teeth look better, creating a false sense of confidence and security for owners and may cause harm by delaying effective treatment that can only be given by a professional veterinary health care provider.

Many oral problems can only be diagnosed during complete examination under general anaesthesia. Parts of the mouth simply cannot be seen without anaesthesia. Some early oral cancers can only be seen when the pet is under chemical restraint. Delaying diagnosis of these problems can mean that they become far more difficult to treat, or may even become untreatable. Many oral diseases can only be diagnosed by x-ray examination. This is only possible in an anaesthetised pet.

Modern anaesthetic procedures, together with appropriate monitoring and support, carry very low levels of risk. In general terms the benefits of effective dental and periodontal treatment far outweigh the risks of the anaesthetic. Use of intubation – where a tube carries the anaesthetic gases directly into the trachea (wind-pipe) protects the patient from inhalation of dental debris, or the bacteria-rich aerosol, created during the dental procedure.

In summary, “anaesthesia-free dental procedures” are not in the best interests of the health and welfare of patients in that they:

cannot allow full oral examination to be performed and vitally important diagnoses may be missed or delayed;
do not allow full and effective cleaning of the most important sub-gingival areas;
may actually cause damage to the tissues surrounding the teeth;
may cause discomfort, pain and/or distress to the animal;
are likely to delay clients accessing effective, proper oral care;
if performed under the guise of a “Dental Treatment” could be considered misleading; unless the owners are made aware of the inadequate and potentially injurious nature of the procedure.

This statement is issued with the agreement of:
EVDC (European Veterinary Dental College)
EVDS (European Veterinary Dental Society)
The current recognised Specialists in Veterinary Dentistry practising in the UK BVDA (British Veterinary Dental Association)

SC Jan 14 AI 03 (a) Annex B

Additional advice for members of the public

Members of the public considering providing anaesthesia-free dental services should be aware of their responsibilities under the Veterinary Surgeons Act and also the potential dangers of causing harm to pets which could lead to actions under the Animal Welfare Act.
Members of the public considering allowing someone to perform an anaesthesia-free dental procedure on their cat or dog should be aware that the procedure may cause harm to their pet and that, as owners, they also have a responsibility under the Animal Welfare Act to avoid this.
Members of the public should be aware that a professionally performed dental examination and cleaning procedure, carried out under anaesthesia, is usually the recommended approach to tackling the important issue of oral disease.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 13:17:23 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]to veterinary standards. [/quote]

Devil's advocate: "practice standards" is pointless but "veterinary standards" are essential.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]a knowledgeable vet [/quote]

How does a member of the public differentiate between a knowledgable vet and an ignorant one?

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Bob Russell — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 11:02:46 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I note that our Samantha will carry out a free health and wellbeing check as well! Who needs vets?

[/quote]

I was reading that! We don't even let qualified nurses diagnose from an abdominal palpation. How is this person going to do a 'wellbeing check'? Although nowadays it wouldn't surprise me if it has something to do with 'alternative' therapies and that sort of cr**...

[/quote]

Qualified nurses do not diagnose, vets do! Good nurses, nurse to the highest standard.

Over the years I have been guided to a diagnosis by good nurses of course!

A dental scaler is about £90 on ebay. A polisher even less. Good veterinary dentistry priceless!

Absolutely trading standards. Unless it is being done by a knowledgeable vet then it is not to veterinary standards.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 09:27:38 GMT

I don't attack Royal College just because they're Royal College (retarded adolescent defying authority attitude) but if they don't take out a private prosecution, then I'll attack them on a specific issue - as I did on cat kidney transplants, and (at one time ) banning us from reporting to the police a suspicion of badger baiting, or illegal dog fighting, and allowing corporate practice.

Wynne

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

James Allsop — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 19:27:53 GMT

Im awaiting a response from RCVS and will update accordingly.......

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 19:24:01 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I note that our Samantha will carry out a free health and wellbeing check as well! Who needs vets?

[/quote]

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 19:20:09 GMT

I note that our Samantha will carry out a free health and wellbeing check as well! Who needs vets?

I'm appalled, of course, but only in a "oh no, here we go again, this is so tedious" sort of way.

"Teeth De-Scaling to Veterinary Standards" is of course a straight lie........... or is it? She only says "de-scaling"; clearly she doesn't even understand what she's doing, but obviously what she is doing is just cosmetic, unless she's anaesthetising the dogs too..... I wouldn't guarantee that there aren't still veterinary practices who do the same, but with an anaesthetic.......... maybe that makes it a veterinary standard?

This is the sort of thing that Belgravia House could easily lean very heavily upon, but they don't. It's a matter for Trading Standards, but you'll have to do it yourself. Belgravia House won't help, betcha.

Re: Dog Grooming branching out into dentistry?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 19:15:24 GMT

Let's protect the public.

Shouldn't all the efforts spent on criticizing the one day mistake of Chikosi, Albridge and Kutschera be better spent on ensuring that we continue the monopoly of acts of veterinary surgery and their interpretation being performed only and solely by vets?

What is the ultimate goal of the existence of our regulatory body? Is it not the health and safety of our patients? Doesn't matter if they're not our patients but still animals?