Tb in dogs and cats

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Kate Richardson — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 11:45:01 GMT

Useful link for owners who require more information

http://www.icatcare.org/news/tuberculosis-and-cats-%E2%80%93-what-you-need-know

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Wren — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:45:30 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]There have been some quite big outbreaks in outdoor pig units. Isolated pig units like some suckler herds in Wiltshire are like sentinels to wildlife infection Neil

[/quote]

Thank you, interesting! They have some good researchers on The Archers.

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Laurence Webb — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:00:15 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]ust out of interest, Lawrence, was your case euthanized?[/quote]

No, and bloody frustrating too.

Despite long discussions about the zoonitic risks of keeping a cat with pulmonary TB lesions spluttering over them and getting Public Health to talk to them they decided to keep the cat. It was started on triple antibiotic therapy (rifampicin, marbofloxicin and azithromycin) with extremely poor compliance by owner. After 3 months of repeated telephone calls about the importance of following the antibitoics regime to avoid creating drug resistant TB which they could contract they disappeared.

The last I heard was a request from another practice for the clinical history as it had been booked in for castration (yes, entire TB +ve multiresistant cat, what fun). The practice reputedly refused to have it in because of zoonitic risk to staff.

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:01:58 GMT

There have been some quite big outbreaks in outdoor pig units. Isolated pig units like some suckler herds in Wiltshire are like sentinels to wildlife infection Neil

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

grumpyoldman — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:19:24 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"][quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Sorry I promise never to triple post again but made me laugh

Dr Google says

Sorry ,there was a big write up about them in In PRACTICE about 2-3 years ago, NTMI = NONE TUBERCULAR MYCOBACTERIAL INFECTION , I think some people used to call them Leprosy , I suspect a lot get roped into the Eosinophilic granuloma complex , or are just excised without acid fast histo.

***	NTMI	New Technology Management, Inc
*	NTMI	NATO Training Mission - Iraq
*	NTMI	Non-Transmural Myocardial Infarction (cardiology)

Neil

[/quote]

Sorry I promise never to triple post again but made me laugh

Dr Google says

***	NTMI	New Technology Management, Inc
*	NTMI	NATO Training Mission - Iraq
*	NTMI	Non-Transmural Myocardial Infarction (cardiology)

Neil

[/quote]

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

james herriot lied — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:58:06 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

[quote user="james herriot lied"]ust to be mindlessly pedantous, Lawrence, were they able to culture the original BAL, or did you have to send in some bits? And how long did it take?[/quote]Yes, culture was done on the BAL. It was quite a while back but I think it took around 1-2 months to get an initial culture to say 'probably TB' then 4-6 months for the typing.

Not quick and false negative cultures would be a worry, but that's the nature of the beast.There is no legal obligation to cull pets so biopsies/post mortem can only be done with the owner's permission.

[/quote]

Thanks for that. Yes, probably in line with expectations - culture is always slow, and typing even more so. Did they discuss at any point the blood test?

One of the big bugbears of farmers is the fate of IRs following two inconclusive results - these now get taken as reactors. They'll often get results back stating 'lesions present', as though a tubercular formation were definitive diagnosis of a problem which has just sentenced them to continuing hardship and another test in 60 days. These cases, though, are not cultured - and that seems a bit harsh. I've had a few herds where it's only the odd IR that keeps them under restriction, and continuing TB has not been proven without doubt

Back to the point, though, a couple of months is an AWFUL long time to wait for a probability outcome - and not without its attendant risks: whilst I don't think that pre-clinically infected cows present a huge danger (personal opinion only), domestic pets are usually symptomatic and MUST be shedding. Two months is a risky length of time for owners.

Just out of interest, Lawrence, was your case euthanized?

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Ceri Gruffudd Jones — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:42:17 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Had our first client phone to ask if we did a TB vaccination for dogs today! I expect many more enquiries from the worried well. Anyone else had one?

[/quote] One phone call asking if we could TEST a dog (clinically well) for TB. Returning to an earlier acronym, I would guess at NTMI being Non-Tuberculous Mycobacterial Infection

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

karen jones — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:00:56 GMT

Had phone call this morning from a lady whose cat had a cat bite in March and also has upper respiratory signs and lives next to a badger set on a farm which has gone down with TB. The lady and her son have had a cough for several weeks so could I please test the cat today for TB so that she can take her sister to Christies for cancer treatment tomorrow without worrying about infecting her or the hospital..... My advice was to start with a visit to the doctor to have her cough checked out and that there was no I could diagnose TB that quickly plus the cat was in Manchester . Maybe one of you vets in Manchester has met her today.

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Tim Mainland — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 18:23:39 GMT

Perhaps it's best that I don't mention Alpacas at this stage.

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Bob Russell — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 18:02:45 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]) Remember it's reportable so if you suspect a case your local AHVLA should be informed[/quote]

One of the best bits of advice I was given as a student seeing practice was to NEVER diagnose a reportable/notifiable disease. On your suspicion, you call the govt vet and ask them for a second opinion. That way, all the responsibility and the paperwork is theirs.

[/quote]

In the days when you went to the VI centre, had a chat and a supervised TB test this was the advice the VO gave me on the quiet!

If in doubt pass it on!

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:58:57 GMT

Had our first client phone to ask if we did a TB vaccination for dogs today! I expect many more enquiries from the worried well. Anyone else had one?

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:52:13 GMT

I don't suppose anybody knows, because they're not tested.Add on most pigs slaughtered in this country never go out.

I suppose outdoor pigs COULD be tested - just don't ask me to do the testing

Imagine trying to get a herd of pigs through a crush,and the squealing! It doesn't bear thinking about.

Wynne

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Wren — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:44:51 GMT

What about pigs? Has anyone ever met a pig with TB?

In The Archers at the moment (go on, jeer...) there is a storyline about a suckler herd with a suspect TB case at slaughter and they are worried about possible transmission to the outdoor pigs on the same farm (cattle broke out and got in amongst pigs). I'm aware that theoretically pigs (like most mammals) are susceptible to TB, but is this a likely scenario?

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:13:02 GMT

Not really We need all the facts to gain a full epidemiological picture. I've always said I thought the problem was multifactorial.

However, if none of these had used sludge, it doesn't prove that sludge can't spread it - merely that it can be spread in other ways - which isn't the same thing at all!

Wynne

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:01:46 GMT

Not a single case with TB used sludge

I think from memory that one of the negative control ones did (It was a long time ago) but that would be a bit mischievous wouldn't it?

Neil

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:45:04 GMT

Do you mean none of the farms in the trial used sludge; do you mean that some did , but none of those had TB breakdowns; do you mean that some did, and had TB breakdowns,but the difference between farms which used sludge, and those that didn't wasn't statistically significant?

Wynne

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:41:05 GMT

Neil or talks

Wynne

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

ChrisBVSc — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:11:45 GMT

To answer the original question on diagnosis:

I am currently treating a cat following surgical excision of a TB lesion (M.microti), that presented as a large, non healing, draining lesion on the ventral neck with surrounding granulation tissue. Diagnosis was made via ZN staining of a tissue sample (confirming mycobacterial infection) then a gamma-interferon test by Biobest (all under the direction of Danielle G-M). This can distinguish between M.bovis, microti, & other non-TB complex organisms - I can't remember all the details off the top of my head but Danielle is very helpful if anyone gets a suspicious case.

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:07:59 GMT

Hi Wynne

It was one of the orriginal questions used on the disease report form and was also used on the 'control' farms (farms with no TB, as they were trying to find out why they didn't get TB) when questionnaires were done within the 3km Krebs trial area.

Not all the 600 were dairy farms, TB will affect anything that moos.........baas, oinks.............................................or meows

Neil

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:45:48 GMT

I'm even more bewildered. What's Iraq etc got to do with it.

Neil Did you actually ASK about spreading sewage sludge. It's so widespread (pardon the pun) these days, quite frankly, I find it difficult to believe that you can have 600 dairy farms, and NONE has used sewage sludge.

It's easy to say no association - if you take good care not to ask awkward questions

Wynne

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:21:52 GMT

Sorry I promise never to triple post again but made me laugh

Dr Google says

***	NTMI	New Technology Management, Inc
*	NTMI	NATO Training Mission - Iraq
*	NTMI	Non-Transmural Myocardial Infarction (cardiology)

Neil

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:13:19 GMT

And copying grumpyold mans habit of double neh triple posting, thank goodness my wife was close as BAL = Bronchi Alveolar lavage. (She knew that one) Please please use longer language

Neil

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:10:34 GMT

Not a single case of over 600 that I investigated in the past 12 years had any history of spreading human sludge

There is no evidence that cows can spread TB via faeces, even though several studies have tried to show this

Wildlife spread TB through the urinary and respiratory route.

Sorry Wynne

PS Though I do agree with what an earth is NTMI? I started a post a few years ago pleading with everyone to avoid using these breakdown abbreviations and to be honest if I see them now I just skip the post.

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Laurence Webb — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:09:25 GMT

Re: Tb in dogs and cats

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:44:11 GMT

JHL I absolutely agree with you - which is the reason I think the question of whether or not there's a correlation between TB breakdown and use of sewge sludge needs investigating. It was a far less commonly used fertiliser during the 1950s when we (as a country) were successful in almost eradicating TB in cattle.

GOL What is NTMI?

Wynne