Grape toxicity

RE: Grape toxicity

John Flynn — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 22:09:18 GMT

Never seen a case of grape toxicity in dogs, but reading a couple of the reports in this thread it does sound plausible?

I don't think I'll stop the dog hoovering up a few grapes just yet though ;-)

There was an interesting post near the beginning on proving an association. If it's a genuine concern, then perhaps a more basic study would be to do a case-control on dogs presenting with acute kidney failure (I don't personally see many of these, but I'm sure in a university-setting they'd get a fair number sent to them?) of no known cause to see if they are more likely to have eaten grapes in the preceeding week than the matched control dogs?

RE: Grape toxicity

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:18:56 GMT

As I understand it there is little proof that anything on or in a grape is toxic. Some individuals might be having an idiosyncratic reaction however nobody knows what to or why.

Some buns etc that contain raisins may well contain artificial sweeteners as well.

Not sure what eating a kilo of raisins would do to the human body!!

The internet is jam packed with fairly reputable websites pushing the panic button. Are they just recycling dodgy stuff in the Merck Veterinary manual or have I spent the last 30 years missing grape toxicity?

RE: Grape toxicity

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:39:32 GMT

My understanding is that it's really a case of mycotoxicosis. It all depends on whether that grape has a particular fungus growing on it. A dog can be fine for ages and ages, then eats the wrong grape.

Wynne

RE: Grape toxicity

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:15:16 GMT

Just had a dog in for a booster, owner works on a building site. Dog has been getting a bit of fruit toast every morning from one of the owner's colleagues for the past 6 months. Dog is fine, albeit a bit fat...

Re: Grape toxicity

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 04 Jun 2014 09:36:14 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

Admitted for fluids and anti-nausea medication, and we'll have to cross our fingers and see how things progress.

[/quote]

Unfortunately became anuric overnight at Vets Now and was euthanased.

Re: Grape toxicity

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 14:33:32 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Lusted"]

Has anyone definitely seen a case in practice, bloods tests etc, and positive it's due to grapes\raisins and not just co-incidence? Can anyone offer me better literature (mainly because I want to win the argument but has made me think why I advise clients on this!) Ta muchly :)

[/quote]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread as I was presented today with a 1yo F(N) 21kg lurcher that ate nearly 500g of sultanas 2 days ago, it has been lethargic and vomiting for the past 24hrs. Clinical examination unremarkable, on bloods urea 32.1 (2.5-9.6) and creatinine 1034 (44-159). The dog has had no previous health problems so I'm not in much doubt that the sultanas are the cause of the renal problems. Admitted for fluids and anti-nausea medication, and we'll have to cross our fingers and see how things progress.

Re: Grape toxicity

emerald — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 11:47:55 GMT

Just found a link on here about an online cpd on this topic:

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/events/veterinary-cpd/archive/2014/03/07/28-Apr-14-11-00-vitis-vinifera-poisoning-in-dogs.aspx

Re: Grape toxicity

Sandra Milburn — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:50:11 GMT

only case I have ever seen was a member of staff's dog. Youngish dalmation (18m) that ate a good punnet full of grapes. Was considered too long to induce emesis (think o came home around 4h later). Did in house bloods and yes, renal parameters were increased enough to make us nervous. Kept her in on fluids over night and bloods in am were pretty much back to normal. Being a lively happy Dalmation, keeping her in for longer was no real option, but kept checking bloods at daily intervals for a couple of days - no more issues and dog remained clinically well throughout.

Re: Grape toxicity

David Shepherd — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:07:33 GMT

[quote user="claire godfrey"]

Very annecdotal but my childs favourite game is throwing food on the floor for the dog, This includes copious amounts of raisins and grapes, which he finds particularly funny as the dog chases them around the floor first!

I would rather he didn't eat them but they do not appear to have hurt, neither did eating a whole packet of mince pies one Christmas.

I wouldn't panic if someone reported that their dog had eaten grapes or raisins, just give them the option of treatment but would suspect they would be fine.

[/quote]

According to Ms Lawler you are thereby considered negligent

Re: Grape toxicity

Claire Godfrey — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 12:57:51 GMT

I would rather he didn't eat them but they do not appear to have hurt, neither did eating a whole packet of mince pies one Christmas.

I wouldn't panic if someone reported that their dog had eaten grapes or raisins, just give them the option of treatment but would suspect they would be fine.

Re: Grape toxicity

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 22:03:33 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I discovered as a student that one pint of beer after a packet of Fisherman's Friends was very cheap way of getting pissed/stoned!

[/quote]

D'you know, this explains *so* much!

Re: Grape toxicity

Nicola Lawlor — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 22:02:00 GMT

[quote user="David Shepherd"]

'Considered negligent'? Really? By whom? And given that the small evidence base quoted seems to show that any renal problems arise 2-3 days out what did you hope to achieve with 24hrs of fluids, apart from appeasing the owners? Giving i/v fluids in an otherwise healthy dog is not an entirely risk-free procedure.

I had a farm dog recently who had eaten a bag of chocolate raisins. I discussed the pros and cons with the owner, and as it was recent (less than 2 hrs) I gave apomorphine and it vomited up a nice pile of swollen up raisins less the chocolate. I have no idea if I did any good or not.

David

[/quote]

We suggested 3 days of fluids, not just 24hrs, it was the owner who made the decision to stop fluids because she didn't want her dogs away from home. The literature we researched suggested this was a course of action to be followed and so that is what we did and why we checked daily bloods for 3 days knowing that there can be a delay in problems becoming evident. If we had simply told the owner it will be fine and it turned out not to be then surely we would have been negligent. The advice out there clearly is not black and white having seen the discussion here but I wouldn't like to be having to defend having done nothing. We did make the owner aware at the start that not all cases will develop problems however so we were not trying to mislead her in any way. We did what we genuinely thought was the best at the time. Apomorphine (also not without risk) was not applicable to this situation as the owner only rang some hours later after a friend informed her that raisins were toxic to dogs.

If it was my dog I would do the same again. There may not be evidence that fluids in advance of issues changes the outcome, but without controlled experiments we will probably never know given the somewhat random nature of the clinically affected dogs. IV fluids - not risk free but very rarely with problems if managed properly with an infusion pump and careful monitoring as was the case.

Re: Grape toxicity

Charlie Lyon — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:30:01 GMT

I find it quite interesting that most of the literature comes from the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center (Mazzaferro, Morrow, Eubig), obviously they are going to be a great source of poisoning information and they identified the possible link first, but not a lot of other sources, guess it's something noone is going to do a big non-retrospective study one though, did find one source in the Vet Record as stated below, and the Yoon paper was in Korea.

Sutton, N. etc al (2009) Factors influencing outcome of Vitis vinifera (grapes, raisins, currants and sultanas) intoxication in dogs Veterinary Record

Also a couple of letters in the Vet Record about it

Interestingly the Eubig et al (2005) paper had 132 possible cases of which "41 rejected for poor historical information, 33 for exposure to grapes\raisins for no signs or azotaemia developed. 14 for signs developed but no azotaemia and 14 for possible involement of co-ingestants" and left 43 that developed signs.

Can't say that I can win my argument though (and this is against a non-vet other half who looked into it after we had a poisons CPD lunch talk and I was telling him about it!)... will still advise against it and mention possible renal signs and if a dog has just eaten a load of raisins/grapes will make them vomit but don't think I'll bother with fluids before unless they develop signs

Re: Grape toxicity

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:22:56 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]He was also partial to ..............fisherman's friends[/quote]Back in the day Fisherman's Friends used to contain chloroform and ether., of course with 'elf and safety laws these are now no longer an ingredient. These were both very good at making you feel better when you had a cold. I discovered as a student that one pint of beer after a packet of Fisherman's Friends was very cheap way of getting pissed/stoned!

Re: Grape toxicity

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:09:34 GMT

I've never given an animal prophylactic fluids for this. I agree I can't really see the justification. I have however made a couple of animals vomit after ingestion( including the dog who ate chocolate cake with raisins in laced with alcohol - triple whammy!). If people ask me I advise against giving dogs grapes/raisins though I have had several clients who regularly gave their dogs grapes without any effect.

Re: Grape toxicity

David Shepherd — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 16:59:19 GMT

[quote user="Nicola Lawlor"]

We had a couple of dogs who raided a cupboard while the owner was out and snaffled a couple of bags of raisins. We were not prepared to take the wait and see approach as ultimately we would be considered negligent I am sure if they had succumbed to renal issues. We ran bloods daily to monitor and put them on 24hrs of fluids. We had recommended 3 days based upon what seems to be a standard recommendation but the owner was very reluctant to hospitalise after the first day, so in the end as a compromise we agreed to her having them home and daily blood testing for the 3 days. All was and remained very normal for both dogs (a beagle and Airedale).

[/quote]

David

Re: Grape toxicity

Nicola Lawlor — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 16:09:19 GMT

Re: Grape toxicity

Mark Holmes — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:39:34 GMT

Just tell them" They might kill him but it's really unlikely and I have no reason to believe anything I do now will help. Why don't you take him home and enjoy the last two days you might have with him just in case" .... Cannot do tongue in Cheek smiley from iphone

Re: Grape toxicity

Mark Holmes — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:35:58 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"][quote user="SER"]

We had a 40 kg GSD that died of renal failure 3 days after eating around a kilo of raisins.

[/quote] OK this is interesting, what bloods were taken and what did you do to try to help? The problem I see with the whole grape this is, what do you do? The accepted treatment seems to be put hem on 3 days fluids at twice maintenance. The trouble is that none I have seen have had any azotaemia, but you keep them on fluids just in case as this is 'best practice' The suggestion is that dogs can die having eaten only 2 grapes so it's a real quandary and after 3 days in a hospital that's a very expensive mince pie. Neil

[/quote] To be honest I don't bother. Given that "It's kidneys so it must need fluids" argument has never made sense to me I really cannot see the justification. Why are 3 days better than 2? Or one? Or Four? Fluids in renal disease are to rehydrate, support perfusion - do they? Or help with urinary excretion of toxins - are there any and are they helped with fluids? It has always seemed to be to be very expensive for very little benefit and with no evidence or justification.

Re: Grape toxicity

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:46:35 GMT

Very difficult to decide what to do if no symptoms yet. If ingestion is not long before presentation you might make them vomit, depending on the amount ingested as well as owners concerns. I did talk to a German expert about this and as no one yet knows why and if one dog develops renal failure and the next one doesn't nobody wants to specify what to do or what not to do. He told me there was no point in giving fluids unless there was actual renal failure present. He told me elevated renal parameters will occur (if they do) after 24-48hrs, which is when we will also see the actual symptoms of a very sick dog. A very aggressive fluid therapy is then indicated including hemo or peritoneal dialysis if possible. Small amounts of fluids upfront are not suitable to prevent disease in his opinion and more aggressive fluids may cause trouble in heart compromised dogs for example. Hence he considered any kind of prophylactic therapy as questionable, especially because we cannot tell if the dog in question will fall ill or not. Doesn't really help, I know...

Re: Grape toxicity

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:35:17 GMT

[quote user="SER"]

We had a 40 kg GSD that died of renal failure 3 days after eating around a kilo of raisins.

Re: Grape toxicity

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 11:43:46 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

He was also partial to black coffee if he found an unattended mug, hot chilli/curry sauces and fisherman's friends lozenges and could open anything from child-proof locks to nurses' handbags.

[/quote]

What is he, a reincarnated Yorkshireman?

Re: Grape toxicity

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 11:26:35 GMT

Was your JRT a safe-breaker in a previous existence?

Wynne

Re: Grape toxicity

Utlendigur — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 10:23:46 GMT

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]O: Well they must've swelled up inside her, because she shat grapes for about a week but she's ok now.[/quote]

My cupboard-raiding JRT ate a bag of chocolate covered raisins, and I can confirm that they do indeed emerge very grape-like. It was some years ago and I wasn't aware of the raisin/grape issue but despite the double toxic whammy he suffered no ill effects. He was also partial to black coffee if he found an unattended mug, hot chilli/curry sauces and fisherman's friends lozenges and could open anything from child-proof locks to nurses' handbags.

Re: Grape toxicity

Linda Filshie — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 09:45:39 GMT

My 17kg spaniel-collie cross ate a kilo of raisins with no ill effect whatsoever.