Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

John Flynn — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:43:35 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

"Periodontal disease" comprises both gingivitis and periodontitis which as you correctly stated refer to inflammation of different tissues. "Periodontal disease" and "Periodontitis" are often, incorrectly, used interchangeably.

[/quote]

Every day's a school day

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Rob Davis — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 17:59:34 GMT

[quote user="John Flynn"]"Necrotizing gingivitis is part of a spectrum of disease termed necrotizing periodontal diseases.", while I previously thought gingivitis and periodontitis referred to inflammation of different tissues?)[/quote]

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

John Flynn — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 17:40:24 GMT

Thanks - interesting insights.

I guess it's hard to know whether "vile" periodontitis in a dog is chronic and simply worsened or relatively acute in nature; if an owner says they've never noticed a problem and just come in because of a foul smell I automatically assume that they were simply ignorant to the dental health for a prolonged period of time before this and sounds like this is the safe assumption.

Just looked up the wikipedia (gotta love it!) page on "trench mouth" to find all sorts of jargon I didn't really follow (for instance: "Necrotizing gingivitis is part of a spectrum of disease termed necrotizing periodontal diseases.", while I previously thought gingivitis and periodontitis referred to inflammation of different tissues?), before linking on to "Noma" - I'm not up on the etymology of that one, but guessing it's not a term usefully applied to dogs either.

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:19:45 GMT

[quote user="Peter Southerden"](sometimes blurred)[/quote]

Like an awful lot of things...........................

[quote user="John Flynn"] can you get a "trench mouth"[/quote]

I understood for years that this was considered to be a rampaging infection by Fusobacterium spp, precipitated by, or at least involving, immunosuppressive factors. I understand now that it is considered not nearly as cut-and-dried as that. I've also seen lots of straightforward severe periodontitis labelled "trench mouth" probably incorrectly.

Since everyone is terribly interested in the Great War now (and being subjected by the meeja to great swathes of half-truths, misdirections and popular over-simplifications), we might discuss "trench mouth": a term invented during the War to refer to a severe periodontitis syndrome. This is often said, on the basis of "everybody knows", to have been the result of immunosuppression due to the "stress" the men were under. I am sceptical, and point you to what I see as a parallel, "trench foot". The latter was supposed to be a disease entity, but it was not. It was reduced to low levels almost immediately by the introduction of daily foot inspections (a responsibility of the platoon commanding officer, neglect of which would be a serious offence), and compulsion of the men to wash and dry their feet daily. I believe that "trench mouth" may have been, as much as anything, simply a failure by the men to clean their teeth.

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Peter Southerden — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:54:02 GMT

There is some correlation between gingivitis/stomatitis in cats and FIV and certainly between similar conditions and HIV in man. So immunosuppression appears to be significant in these cases and there is published (I'd have to do a literature search to give you the references) data to show differences in the oral immune response between HIV -ve and +ve patients with severe oral disease.

I think that there is a distinction (sometimes blurred) between cases of severe periodontitis and the sort of case that Glenn has mentioned. In these cases there seems to be more severe inflammation, more rapid attachment loss and extension of severe inflammation onto non gingival tissue (mucositis). Whether this is due to the pathogens involved or immunosupression or both I don't know. The fact that some breeds are predisposed to aggressive gingivitis/mucositis (Cocker Spaniels in my experience) would suggest that there could be an underlying breed related reason that these individuals develop this sort of disease. Is this immune incompetence of genetic origin; predisposition because of their oral confirmation: a difference in oral environment etc etc - who knows but it is an area that warrants investigation.

In the end, at the moment, the treatment is the same - eliminate plaque and plaque retentive areas.

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

John Flynn — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 07:41:25 GMT

[quote user="Glenn Hodgson"] VILE petiodontal disease. Had a dental 1 year ago. [/quote]

If immunosuppressed (orally/generally), can you get a "trench mouth" type infection in dogs?

That can come on surprisingly quickly and I've seen the odd FIV cat apepar to go that way.

Just asking out of interest, I suspect that chronic periodontal disease is much more common.

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Glenn Hodgson — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 21:12:00 GMT

Thnks for the input. Looks like a hypersensitivity to calculus. No overt signs of autoimmune.

In next week for exam, rads and probably oral clearance. The molars are almost floating above the gum... This is certainly the cure. I'll get some photos when she's not trying use her teeth on me and we can ponder the cause further!

The client mentioned that "the teeth were so bad last time they needed to use a chisel to get them out" I know the other vet, gotta love Chinese whispers!

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Glenn Hodgson — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 20:22:07 GMT

Thnks for the input. Looks like a hypersensitivity to calculus. No overt signs of autoimmune.

The client mentioned that "the teeth were so bad last time they needed to use a chisel to get them out" I know the other vet, gotta love Chinese whispers!

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Peter Southerden — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 13:21:31 GMT

If you have a picture that you could upload that would be helpful. The vast majority of these problems are plaque related. Some breeds are over represented (Cocker Spaniels, Sight Hounds, Labs) and individuals appear to be very plaque sensitive and develop an exagerated immune response to what is a universal antigen (plaque). It is possible that in cases like this there are specific bacteria which trigger severe inflammation and tissue destruction however in most cases they are not identified.

Often both the gingiva and other non-gingival oral soft tissues are affected and therefore descriptively the dog has both gingivitis and stomatitis but these are descriptive terms and don't give us any information regarding the cause. In the vast majority of cases lifelong diligent plaque control including scaling/polishing, tooth extraction and effective home care is the answer.

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

David Mills — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:31:11 GMT

Depending where you are, might want to contact Bristol uni - there's a PhD going on there looking into the predisposition of greyhounds (and other such) to periodontal disease, might be some free testing or treatment etc.

Re: Gingivitis Stomatitis of the Lurcher... Quick question

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:08:45 GMT

[quote user="Glenn Hodgson"]Do you get a type of Ging. Stomatitis syndrome in dogs???[/quote]

You get things of that sort of gross appearance, but they are not really anything to do with Feline Chronic Gingivostomatitis.

It could just be vile periodontal disease (I have a feeling that gazehounds are particularly susceptible) (I wonder what the "dental 1 year ago" comprised?). It could be necrotising stomatitis. It might just possibly be a pemphigoid or any of those funny autoimmune things mimicking gingivitis – is there any chance of a photograph?

A blood profile might be a good idea to detect any unsuspected defects.