Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:47:14 GMT

Thanks for proving my point Roger.

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Roger Meacock — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 00:56:59 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]It's all good talking about how you have been saying you have been asking for raw food trials for years Roger, but why haven't you instigated one?[/quote]

An approach was made to Bristol Uni to quote on the price of a trial which was given at around £5m. That's a little steep for those who promote raw and given that funding (if it were available) would have come from a pro-raw group how seriously would sceptics take a positive result? The other issue is that many of the health deteriorations that result from chronic periodontal disease resulting from commercial pet foods can take years to manifest so how long would a trial need to be and how much more expensive would it become? It's not that straight forward to design and carry out a trial that highlights all the issues frequently raised.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]why don't you develop something ... just to officially get a general view of veterinary opinion[/quote]

That's why Tom stands for election every year on a single ticket manifesto and doesn't get drawn into comments on other areas so that the votes he gets every year are an official on-the-record indication that a significant number of vets support the view that a properly formulated RMB diet that is species appropriate is better than commercial feeds and that commercial feeds damage health. It takes just one complaint by an owner for a full-blown investigation yet 3-400 vets questioning commercial pet foods every year is ignored every year ...

Many of the anecdotes you allude to are written by breeders who have swapped a large number of dogs from commercial to raw with notable health benefits. The number of reports now runs into the 0000s or more. I know of owners with packs of racing huskies who have turned down free commercial pet foods to feed raw at significant financial cost because they can tell the dogs are better on raw. These people aren't the fluffy, uneducated or ignorant owners many like to think of them. They know their dogs and change because they see the benefits in their own dogs compared to those around them feeding commercial.

When one of the frequently-quoted benefits of raw feeding is significantly fewer health issues and subsequent vet visits it means that vets unfortunately aren't in the best position necessarily to be the best observers as by definition we only see the results of when things go wrong - frequently from feeding inappropriately-sized raw feed eg chicken wings to labradors. Again this can skew an impression of raw feeding. When many vets seem unable to advise on proper raw feeding inevitably people turn to self-professed lay experts who give wrong advice with the best intentions with subsequent results. When this happens unfortunately many vets tend to blame the whole concept of feeding raw instead of directing owners to proper raw feeding practices. This is where veterinary education is failing to provide the necessary knowledge and the RCVS as the overseers of the educational establishments should be taking a lead and discouraging outside vested interests from such direct input into the courses that are so in favour of commercial pet foods to the exclusion of proper raw feeding practices.

Roger

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 09:04:39 GMT

It's all good talking about how you have been saying you have been asking for raw food trials for years Roger, but why haven't you instigated one?

If you feel passionate about something, why don't you develop something? Even something as simple as a questionnaire for vetsurgeon.org members to complete, just to officially get a general view of veterinary opinion. This could be a starting point for further studies if you can prove something about it.

None of this 'well let me tell you about a case my Mother's Aunt's Cousin's friend. It was desperately ill, then we started raw food, and now it's cured!'.

You can organise this, rather than someone on this forum, so no-one can be accused of leading the questions to make raw diets look bad.

I look forward to Tom's (un)balanced opinion on this matter when the thread is resurrected around election time.

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Roger Meacock — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 22:18:13 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Slightly more on topic, however, with the greatest of due respect, my beef with the article was that it didn't seem to be a 'skeptic' guide at all...

[/quote]

I don't think (reading this thread) that it's a difficult step to see that Nick wrote the guide with advice for the reader in mind given that the majority of vets are raw "skeptic"s. Clearly he doesn't need to write an article to advise himself!

I don't think it's fair to say that raw advocates don't recognise the potential zoonotic risk. There have been many discussions on this forum in which raw advocates have clearly stated that handling raw meaty bones pet food requires the same precautions as handling raw meat used for human food. It is a very simple matter of taking whatever precautions are necessary given the home situation, age of children present etc. Where attitudes seem to differ is on the practicality of taking these precautions. Raw advocates clearly see this as less of a problem that sceptics on the basis that we successfully manage our own raw feeding situation on a daily basis without contracting any zoonotic diseases and therefore have greater practical experience on which to draw from.

The call for raw trials echoes calls of raw advocates too! If pet food trials are to be truly scientific then they should include a group for comparison fed on raw especially as many of the "science" diets have closer chemical compositions to raw than many of the so-called maintenance commercial pet foods where protein levels are frequently ridiculously high. Fast growing doesn't necessarily equate to healthier. With significantly less money to pump into raw trials in advance and less commercial gain at the end to pay for a trial, raw feeding advocates do not have the ability to fund trials from within. Part of the issue is that there are a variety of raw alternatives to choose from which wouldn't all be acceptable to the whole raw feeding community.

On the whole, the raw feeding movement is growing thanks to the internet and the many testimonials that exist where pets only improved from veterinary-diagnosed medical conditions following changing to being fed on raw. Vets can clearly refuse to recognise what is happening and can choose to be in denial but the movement will carry on regardless and owners will continue to draw their own conclusions regarding the close associations between the pet food industry and the veterinary profession.

If vets use our collective influence to call for a proper investigation into the benefits of raw and a proper comparison with commercial pet foods then we can no longer be accused of taking sides without such rigorous appraisal. The fact that there are "scientific trials" comparing different types of commercial feeds means nothing because to draw an analogy in the human field you could have a trial looking at the relative health resulting from eating McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, Dominoes pizza and other fast foods on a long term daily basis. One will be "better" than the rest but it doesn't make it good in absolute terms and is difficult to put into perspective unless the trial includes a comparison to an ideal non-fast food option. The politics and the financial implications of doing such a trial are a whole different discussion which shouldn't take priority over health but presently appear to.

Roger

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 19:27:39 GMT

Slightly more on topic, however, with the greatest of due respect, my beef with the article was that it didn't seem to be a 'skeptic' guide at all...

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 19:26:56 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

" would you eat raw chicken?"

Yuc no, but being Dutch I love raw herring :-)

Mariette

[/quote]

Oh yes, and last Friday I was in the most *amazing* japanese restaurant in Newport; best sushi and sashimi i've ever eaten, full stop. (I prefer my herring pickled, thank you, but that's purely because it goes really well with onions.)

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Niall Taylor — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 19:22:48 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]Then ban farmers from having any children around too....[/quote]

What a strange remark - are you suggesting we shouldn't question the feeding of raw food because farms are dangerous places for children?

No one is talking about banning anything here, it's just a discussion about the relative risks and difficulties of feeding raw, the problem with raw proponents being, by and large, they are in complete denial of those risks and difficulties.

Nick's article was appalling - even without consideration of the subject matter it was badly written (is there such a word as "unpigeonholeable"?), factually incorrect in places and, as Alex said, had no decent references whatsoever. It is basically just a great long string of uplifting, anecdotal puff - quelle surprise, coming from a homeopath!

Curing DM in cats by feeding raw - really? And what about "Raw food feeding for dogs and cats was unheard of 20 years ago" - someone ought to tell that to the cat's meat man!

I can't say I'm looking forward to future installments of "the journey that could change [my] professional life".

The irony here is that there is no such thing as a united "raw feeding movement" - Tom Lonsdale is on record, on this very forum, as saying he hates BARFER's even more than he does conventional feeders. The idea that Ian Billinghurst started the whole movement is likely to give him apoplexy - if he wasn't such a raw food advocate he'd probably be chewing the carpet - according to Tom he taught Ian everything he knows.

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Alex Gough — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 16:44:35 GMT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21654340

76 children visiting a farm infected with E. coli, many with acute renal failure, some on dialysis and now facing a need for kidney transplants. This is NOT a trivial issue.

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 16:32:32 GMT

Then ban farmers from having any children around too....

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Alex Gough — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 14:02:19 GMT

There are plenty of peer-reviewed papers showing that dogs excrete campylobacter and salmonella, that dogs fed a raw food diet shed more, and that these diseases are zoonoses. It is a different situation from handling raw food in the kitchen, after which (one hopes) you wash your hands, utensils and surfaces and cook the food. And some people may have good hygiene around their dogs, but many don't. I'm often trying to persuade owners not to let their dogs lick their faces, even after chemotherapy! As for stopping children being unhygienic with them - impossible. And the numerous immunosuppressed? These are not trivial concerns. I don't believe the diet is entirely safe for dogs, but if we saw some controlled trials it may be we would find out the benefits outweigh the risks. But I don't believe this is an entirely safe situation for humans, and for me, one child dead from avoidable salmonellosis outweighs any pet health benefits.

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:37:08 GMT

" would you eat raw chicken?"

Yuc no, but being Dutch I love raw herring :-)

Mariette

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:35:43 GMT

No but I don't eat my dogs raw meat or any part of my dog which may excrete campylobacter etc.! I do practice reasonable hygiene around my dogs excretions anyway, her eating anything raw or not.

Mariette

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Sarah Keir — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:19:54 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

"significant proven zoonotic risk" (Alex Gough).

Yes it is often mentioned but I am not sure about the significance of it in reality. If handling raw meat or contact with raw meat was a significant zoonotic risk factor, what about all the non vegetarian chefes in the kitchen???

Mariette

[/quote]

But the chefs aren't eating the raw meat, they are only handling it. There is significant contamination of raw meat with food poisoning organisims - would you eat raw chicken?

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:09:04 GMT

"significant proven zoonotic risk" (Alex Gough).

Mariette

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 22:57:28 GMT

I butcher deer in the garden. My Patterdale loves stripping the meat off the bones and then 'buries' them in the gravel path with her nose - leaving a rather conspicuous heap with a deer femur sticking out. Hours of entertainment, but bugger all food value.

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Miriam Lodewyks — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 21:30:06 GMT

Gave my labrador a fresh, raw bone to chew on, as a rare and special treat, a couple days ago. I've had to mop up no less than 15 blobs of sloppy grey stools today! Normally there'd be no more than 2 firm, brown sausages... Think I'll stick to processed RCW from now on

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Alex Gough — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 20:48:23 GMT

I had an IBD case recently that the owner swapped to a raw food diet after lots of diagnostics and treatments. The raw food seemed to help, but we had done other things as well, such as recently starting treatment with budesonide instead of prednisolone. It's entirely possible that raw food diets are appropriate in some cases, but we don't know which ones because there are no trials, and there is a significant proven zoonotic risk, and on that basis I find it hard to recommend them currently. One day that may change.

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 18:47:48 GMT

I was most intrigued by his statement that "cats and dogs evolved eating raw food since their ancestors crawled out of the ocean". If he defended human left overs I would find it more logical because that is what cats and dogs have evolved and been domesticated on. it is a pity this discussion has become so polarised, because I would be interested in a debate on the role of all this commercial food, but not between a bunch of religiously convinced proponents of the one or the other (RMB stuff).

Mariette

Re: Raw foods in Veterinary Practice magazine

Carolyn Danbury — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 17:50:06 GMT

Having looked at his website I'm intrigued by the fact that in the 'Raw Food Preparation' section he advises 'pumpkin and squash (stewed)' and 'sweet potatoes (baked)'.....