Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 30 Jan 2014 23:44:24 GMT

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]either plaque off or dentagen aqua[/quote]

Bah.

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]I just wandered if there were any other/better products people were using?[/quote]

Petdent Gel slathered round with a finger instead of a brush.

Chews. Anything to chew! Rawhide is best. Veggident (Virbac). Dentagen Chews rather expensive. Bits of gristly raw meat Stuff like Dentastix if all else fails. Keep on trying to introduce brushing: demonstrate how to the owner at every check-up.

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

a.bardell — Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:14:26 GMT

On the subject of oral hygiene products what do people recommend for home care after dental work? I find a lot of my older patients don't allow toothbrushing so I usually send them home with either plaque off or dentagen aqua as a compromise. I just wandered if there were any other/better products people were using?

Alexa

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Peter Southerden — Thu, 30 Jan 2014 09:08:10 GMT

Healthy Mouth is a product that is popular in the US and is used for plaque reduction. It is available in formulations developed for cats, dogs and horses. It has got VOHC (Veterinary Oral Health Council) approval. The VOHC sees itself as the US (perhaps global) upholder of standards for products that are available for treatment of plaque related oral disease in animals. There are, I think, nine boarded US diplomates who sit on the council.

The manufacturers of Healthy Mouth have received VOHC approval for many of their products. I have seen the data submitted to the VOHC. On the face of it it appears OK but I have seen limited information on how the studies were run and how the VOHC made it's decision. There have been no peer reviewed published studies which I think is interesting. I remain sceptical but it is now available in the UK.

Healthy mouth isn't what this dog needs Im afraid. It has a very aggressive periodontitis (similar to necrotising ulcerative gingivitis seen in people) likely to be associated with gram negative, anaerobic, filamentous bacteria. It appears that in at least one site (between the maxillary fourth premolar and first molar - can't remember which side as I can't see the pictures as I type this) that there may be exposed alveolar bone. If this is so it indicates that there is likely to be active osteomyelitis in this region.

The splits in the gingiva between the maxillary fourth premolars and first molars are gingival clefts. The gingival tissue is lost because of the destruction of the underlying bone by the aggressive bacterial infection. This area is predisposed to periodontal disease as it is relatively plaque retentive.

Ideally, as Evelyn has said, all teeth with attachment loss should be extracted as soon as possible and any areas of exposed bone should be biopsied to check for osteomyelitis. The owner should start brushing any remaining teeth with a CHX containing dental gel and the mouth flushed twice daily with a CHX flushing solution. Antibiotics are probably indicated in this case - the duration depends on whether this dog has osteomyelits. If there is active osteomyelitis any affected bone should be debrided. In most cases like this I would use a combination of Amoxy/Clav and Metronidazole. Let me know if you would like any further help.

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

John Flynn — Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:19:50 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]

Has anyone used Healthymouth? I'm a bit dubious of any of these miracle mouth cleaners, but maybe for this case?

[/quote]

Dunno, what is it?

[/quote]

An antiplaque product; popular in usa

http://vohc.org/accepted_products.htm

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

John Flynn — Thu, 30 Jan 2014 08:18:45 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]

Has anyone used Healthymouth? I'm a bit dubious of any of these miracle mouth cleaners, but maybe for this case?

[/quote]

Dunno, what is it?

[/quote]

An anti-plaque product; popular in usa

http://vohc.org/accepted_products.htm

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 30 Jan 2014 02:04:43 GMT

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]

Has anyone used Healthymouth? I'm a bit dubious of any of these miracle mouth cleaners, but maybe for this case?

[/quote]

Dunno, what is it?

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Suzanne Kelly — Thu, 30 Jan 2014 00:46:23 GMT

Has anyone used Healthymouth? I'm a bit dubious of any of these miracle mouth cleaners, but maybe for this case?

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 29 Jan 2014 01:02:52 GMT

PS I didn't mean extract every tooth, I meant extract every tooth with any periodontitis. No scope for salvage of anything in this case I imagine.

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:49:53 GMT

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]PS how did you manage to upload the pics?[/quote]

Pic on desktop (or wherever).

As you compose your post, tick that funny green thing that is supposed to look like frames of film in the menu bar just above (it means "insert media")

A little window opens. Select the tab "from computer". Click "choose file". In Mac OS you then get a Finder window of the usual sort (I expect Windoze does something similar) where you can browse, find the pic you want, select it and hit "choose".

Then the name of the pic will be in the "insert media" window. Click "insert" and wait. It can take anything from 10 to 60 seconds depending on the size of your pic. Eventually though the pic will appear in your post.

Repeat as often as you wish.

Have Campari arancia to celebrate.

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Suzanne Kelly — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:57:53 GMT

Thanks Evelyn! I think we posted at about the same time, so hence all the Flickr stuff. I think developmental lesions make sense as they are bilateral. Really weird case. The rate of rot was rather shocking though. I've not seen anything quite like it before, or the splits. They are into the bone. I don't have pictures of the black and horrible teeth as I'd them whipped out before I thought to take pictures.

Thanks again,

Suzanne

PS how did you manage to upload the pics? It nearly drove me to drink ( ok it has driven me to drink I'm clutching a gin and tonic)

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Suzanne Kelly — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:51:49 GMT

http://www.flickr.com/photos/suzvet/sets/72157640266224135/

I'm hoping this is the link to the photos and that if you see any pics that aren't of a dog's mouth you'll forgive my computer illiteracy and PM me to let me know! I opened Flickr for the first time in 7 years and found a load of photos I'd forgotten I had so am all happy :))

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:36:01 GMT

Here are some of them

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:22:25 GMT

Got 'em. Do you mind if I have a go at uploading them to the site?

I'm guessing the photos were on your mobile phone? I tried enlarging but they just pixellated.

Nice radiographs.

OK. I think the "splits" from what I can see are developmental – it's not just the gingiva, it's the bone, and it's just a deformity, the way this dog is made.

They are acting as "plaque traps", hence the particularly severe periodontal disease in the 108/9 and 208/9 regions for instance.

I confess I can't see anything black. Was the black and horrible stuff maybe just crud in the affected sites?

What is going on is well advanced periodontitis in many sites, with considerable bone loss showing in most of the Xrays. In at least one tooth (either 309 or 409) there is a classic perio-endo lesion: the periodontitis has advanced so far that the pulp has been compromised and now there is pulpitis and a periapical lucency. That would definitely tie up with the bone thickening.

You could speculate as to what has predisposed this dog, and you might even be able to identify something that you could do something about (lousy hygiene? weird diet? unsuspected metabolic disease?) but I guess your treatment plan (mass extraction) has got to be the right one in the circumstances.

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Suzanne Kelly — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:21:52 GMT

Cannot post images, have tried. Evelyn I emailed them to you. They don't look like any caries or CORLs I've ever seen before but am open to suggestions!

Re: Basset Hound teeth rotting, very long!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:07:44 GMT

Not sure about the "weird splits" so I look forward to the pictures.

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]307 and 309 were black and horrible[/quote]

Caries is the only condition I know that can make a tooth black and horrible. In this case, with resultant endodontic disease. Or was the blackness internal, as it were? If so, obviously endodontic disease. Maybe resorption (cf. FORLs of cats). Endodontic disease, thence periapical infection. Reactive thickening of the cortex of the mandible in the vicinity is a recognised phenomenon. It will gradually resove again if the cause is removed.

I might be up the wrong tree altogether. I hope we can see the pictures.